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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:02 pm 
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^:)^ Well it sounds for sure like a beer is in order next time I come through TX. I'll buy!

We would never question a breeder being motivated to preserve working quality Lacy dogs. It is an honorable cause.

What we are questioning, I guess, is the association's view on pet Lacy dogs, and whether or not we are a good fit in this group.

You and I can obviously agree that no matter how strictly the dogs are bred, there will inevitably be "pet quality" dogs produced.

IMO the Lacy dogs that are "pet quality" need a place to go and a "Breed Association" should support the people that take in "pet quality" Lacy dogs and give them physically and mentally stimulating lives despite their ability to hunt/herd. I'm not sure the general public would get that impression from reading this association's website.

I agree that breeding should be done responsibly and therefore promote (for all breeds) the spay/neutering of pet dogs and strict guidelines on breeding. Guidelines beyond working the dogs should be what separates the backyard breeders and the responsible ones. Backyard breeders have been the downfall of many breeds and it is the responsibility of the breed association to prevent "backyard breeding" through strict control - even if that means the loss of some personal freedom on the part of the breeder.

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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:14 pm 
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I've heard it mentioned before I became a lacy owner that they had to be proven before they could be registered to breed or something like that. Could someone that's been around longer expand on this?


I will be glad to. No your dog doesn't have to be proven to breed or be registered. Any Lacy dog can be registered. We recommend that you do work your dog. If you fill out your breeder application it does ask you in so many words what your goals and intentions are.

Personally I don't think a dog should be breed until minim of 18 months and the associate and the registry back that as well. I would prefer breeders wait until the dam and the sire are 2 yrs or older. We specifically waited until Lolita was almost 3 before breeding her for the first time. I wanted to make sure she would do what she was breed to do.

As far as "working" we can only give you suggestions on what you could do with your dog. The main idea is to stimulate them as much as possible. This question has been asked a 1000 times and not once has anyone been happy with the answer. Every one has their own opinion of what working is. We all work and don't have jobs that allow us to hunt daily nor do the season always allow everyone to hunt. There is a true difference in my dogs when they have gone out and ran hogs for the afternoon, then when they just get out and chase a ball.

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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:29 pm 
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O.K. I will make this short and sweet. I donot have any problem with anyone haveing a Lacy for a pet. I do have a problem with people BREEDING pet Lacys. You can breed the working ability out of almost any breed within 3 gen. That is the reason N.L.D.A. INSPECTS ALL Lacy dogs for conformation, temperament and working abilty before they are registered with N.L.D.R. If this dose not anser your ? let me know and i will try again. :ymhug:

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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:09 am 
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Kathy,

I was a charter member of the NLDA and at the inaugural meeting. To my recollection when the term "working" came up it was not defined specifically as a hog dog, or cattle dog, or trapping dog..etc.. From what I remember it was to get you dog a job. Have them doing something to stimulate their drive. Now its been almost 3 years and I could have a fading memory but thats what I remember. My hounds are more pets than workers, however I am lining up some events for them in the near future so things should be changing in their lives,

Hope I helped to answer some of your questions.

Personally I have never bought into the idea that this breed was without faults. Unfortunately your hound "Austin" has brought to light what I personally thought was out there all along but without any means to prove it. You have opened up a wonderful discussion, and its alot for folks to take in all at once. So I ask that you try not to become to discouraged with members as they are all on a learning curve as well. From everything Ive been reading I personally dont believe that anyone who has been posting and probably some of those who arent that they want anything bad going on within the breed.

Lets keep the conversation alive and we will all learn more than we previously knew.

Thanks
kevin

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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:12 am 
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Thank you everyone for your excellent responses!

I'm still hammering away on this project at work. But I'll throw a few comments regarding proven working dogs into the mix...

Scott, I think there is a very inaccurate perception of the term "proven" in the Lacy world versus other working dog communities. Kathy said "proven dogs by the association definition means a dog that by INSTINCT will bay a hog, work cows, etc." But that is not at all a proven working dog, at least not in this association!

A dog who instinctively bays or herds has instincts. Period. Which is great because that's where you need to start, you'll never train instinct into a dog. But only a fraction of the dogs with instinct actually develop into proven working dogs. A proven dog combines a high level of skill with consistent results. For example, woods dogs better be able to go out anywhere there are hogs, find them, shut them down and roll out again. Sounds simple, but that is actually really hard to do, and I'd say it takes at least a year of hunting week in and week out, probably closer to two, to get close to proving it. A proven bay pen dog should be scoring in the very high 9s with plenty of 10s thrown in on a variety of hogs in a variety of pens under a variety of judges in front of a variety of crowds. I'll stop at those two because that's where I have the most experience with my dog, who I don't consider proven by either standard B-) But no matter what type of work it is, a truly proven dog doesn't just have talent and skills. They can prove their aptitude with consistent results, and plenty of them, in the real world.

What would happen if you had to depend on your dog for your livelihood, just as the Lacys did? What if your life depended on the number of hogs they dog brought in, the number of animals they tracked, the number of cows they could drive, etc? Would you be broke? Would you starve? Could you and your dog go to work every day, literally, and get the results you need?

Sadly a lot of people involved with Lacys wouldn't actually think through the implications of that scenario. They'd just jump in and assume their dog could move mountains because they were able to follow a mock trail or bark at an animal in a cage. Those activities might be starting points, but they are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to getting real results. They certainly wouldn't be considered proof of working ability in Cats and BMCs.

I'm sorry if this sounds rude because it isn't meant that way, but it is a good example of the discrepancy in definitions. The play day bays are not real bay competitions and they certainly don't prove hog hunting ability. It's like comparing a pick-up game of hoops to NCAA basketball and football. They are, basically, people having fun with their dogs and hogs. Few of those dogs are truly proven hog dogs, and most of those are woods dogs, which aren't the same as bay pen dogs. Real bay competitions are at a whole different level. And at that level, Lacys are considered a joke. Just ask Camo ;) He's gotten an earful, and so did I when I went to bays and on hog hunts around Texas. Enough bay pen guys, not to mention hog hunters, got burned by watered-down dogs that many consider them novelties. In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason Lacys can't be held in same esteem as Cats and BMCs, but people have to put real effort into breeding and training to achieve that goal. Instead many of them just breed to breed, because they have blue dogs with papers that may have seen a pig at a play day.

We've talked about preserving the genetic health of Lacys, and having a truly sound and functional breed is indeed a rare and precious thing these days. I am totally on board, and I will gladly share information and spread the word on that issue.

Do you know what else is a rarity? A breed that can actual do the job it was bred for. It takes upstanding breeders holding themselves and their dogs to high standards to preserve health AND working ability. Why would we waste either one of those gifts? And why would we make one more important than the other?

Also, we do have pet owners who are members of this group. There are even more people who work their dogs when they can but wish they could work them more. As far as owners go, the whole spectrum is welcome, and we try to support everyone in finding appropriate outlets and activities for their dogs. If working breeders want to cull by placing spayed or neutered dogs in pet homes, I think that is a fantastic solution, though I'd expect them to fully support those owners and responsibly rehome the dogs if it doesn't work. What we don't welcome is people who want to breed pets. So, what Jimmy said :)

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:28 pm
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Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Julie,
You said it girl!!!!! I sure like your question "could you survive on you and your Lacys daily success!". You staited it so many ways, that there should be no question about the out come of the answer. As for me and my kennel, I breed for working Lacys doing the woods hog hunting as they were originally intended, I do the best I can to spay or neuter those that don't make the grade before they leave for another home or at a minimum have a spay/neuter contract with the new owners. Again, your response, answers and questions were very helpful. I hope that all Lacys dogs that are submitted for breed quality registration and approved on their conformation quality can absolutely prove that they not only can do their job, but can answer the question "could they survive on their daily success?". You obviously have a good hold on the ideas set for us by our NLDA leaders. Thank you so much for such a well written response.
Bobby


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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:10 am 
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Bluedog wrote:
Personally I have never bought into the idea that this breed was without faults. Unfortunately your hound "Austin" has brought to light what I personally thought was out there all along but without any means to prove it. You have opened up a wonderful discussion, and its alot for folks to take in all at once. So I ask that you try not to become to discouraged with members as they are all on a learning curve as well. From everything Ive been reading I personally dont believe that anyone who has been posting and probably some of those who arent that they want anything bad going on within the breed.


Yup, this. I haven't bought in to the hype for a long time. First of all, the hype royally screwed me as far as the "active yet well-rounded family dog" that was "suitable for apartment living" was concerned. I realized that even though these are great dogs in their own way, if it sounds too much like a profitable fairytale, that's exactly what it is. And from a completely logical perspective, no breed is perfect, so it is ridiculous to assume Lacys would be the exception.

The only way you'll get people to open their eyes is to talk about it. Change doesn't happen overnight. And there will always be people who love to talk about change but never actually do anything about it. But in the four years I've been stomping around hollering about Lacys, I have seen a shift in the public discourse. I wouldn't have been able to do much alone, but I was lucky enough to find people that had some of the same beliefs I did, and together I think we've made an impact. Even if it just effects one person or one dog, I'm proud of that.

And Bobby, I am so glad you can get on the board now :) I learn a ton from folks like you and grandmadawg that have years of experience with real working dogs but a fresh perspective on the Lacy breed. Please keep posting!

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:22 am 
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Boy, Jimmy nailed that one! The association was not formed to eliminate pet ownership, we can leave that to the HSUS and their cronies. We were formed to preserve performance excellence; to encourage the breeding of proven stock, with performance attributes, for performance purposes only. Own a pet if you like, just don't purposefully breed pets for the all mighty dollar and we will all get along!

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:08 am 
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Steve good to see you around as always well said !!

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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Fair enough! All my dogs are neutered! I'm glad to hear that you all are not completely against lacys as pets. I do commend you all for breeding towards maintaining the original traits that lacys were bred for and providing lacys for those who do work lacys regularly! I respect that completely! I'm just glad to know that it's okay that Austin and Wrangler are my happy pets who I love dearly. I was telling Jimmy Brooks that there were plenty of days (just ask my husband) when I was literally to tears because I wanted to give Austin away to a working home, because I truly believed he would be an amazing working lacy, I think he was born with the drive for it, but selfishly, I admit, I just couldn't bring myself to let him go. Well, now that he has been diagnosed with HD, I think that God had us in mind for each other. He would have never made it long working even if he was great, and it wouldn't have made sense for someone working lacys to put all the time and energy into one dog when they still have lots of work to do. So, I think I was meant for Austin, and he was meant for me! I'm glad he had to opportunity to go on a few hog hunts with my husband, terrorize Bob & Lily's cows all the time by rounding them up and keeping them there, and baying some hogs in pens when he was younger!

Wrangler... I love that dog to death, but he would have never made it as a working dog. He doesn't have the independent spirit that most lacys have to drive them out into the woods away from their owners to get after and stay after hogs. He'd be afraid mom and dad might do something fun and he'd miss out, or God forbid they leave without him :)

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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:04 pm 
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[quote="Julie N"]Scott, I think there is a very inaccurate perception of the term "proven" in the Lacy world versus other working dog communities. Kathy said "proven dogs by the association definition means a dog that by INSTINCT will bay a hog, work cows, etc." But that is not at all a proven working dog, at least not in this association!

A dog who instinctively bays or herds has instincts. Period. Which is great because that's where you need to start, you'll never train instinct into a dog. But only a fraction of the dogs with instinct actually develop into proven working dogs. A proven dog combines a high level of skill with consistent results. For example, woods dogs better be able to go out anywhere there are hogs, find them, shut them down and roll out again. Sounds simple, but that is actually really hard to do, and I'd say it takes at least a year of hunting week in and week out, probably closer to two, to get close to proving it. A proven bay pen dog should be scoring in the very high 9s with plenty of 10s thrown in on a variety of hogs in a variety of pens under a variety of judges in front of a variety of crowds. I'll stop at those two because that's where I have the most experience with my dog, who I don't consider proven by either standard B-) But no matter what type of work it is, a truly proven dog doesn't just have talent and skills. They can prove their aptitude with consistent results, and plenty of them, in the real world.

Thank you Julie, I myself have a history much like Bobby. I can remember leaving home witha light , single shot 22, a favorored black and tan, and a snuck plug of mamoth cave before I was in double digits :D .I actually know what a working dog is. ;) IWhen I got my lacys what you describe is what I expected to get and hope to continue to get.


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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:36 pm 
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I'm out with mine every day. I've asked around about breeding practices before. I always like to see someone that keeps up with what they produce and don't continue crosses that don't produce well. Seems to be common thought that if you breed to decent dogs you get all great dogs and it just doesn't work that way.
I really depend on mine to catch digging varmits, with the cows, defend the calves, or what ever need be. The 2 I have had are as different as night and day though. flint was calm and really focused copper is too hyper to eat. lol. I really could not see him in a pet home.


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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:16 am 
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Scott wrote:
Seems to be common thought that if you breed to decent dogs you get all great dogs and it just doesn't work that way.


So true. You can breed a great dog to a great dog and you still won't hit the jackpot every time. But the odds are certainly better.

It is almost more of a nightmare when you breed a pet to a proven working dog. That is basically how Sadie came about. Her mom is essentially a pet, and her sire was the craziest hog dog ever, but for some reason his owner agreed to breed him to a yard dog anyway. I think only half those pups went to working homes with no real rhyme or reason behind which ones ended up where. At least one of her brothers, owned by family that just wanted to use him on a couple blood trails a year, was put down for aggression. I believe another one of them was as well. And Sadie has come close to that fate herself.

That got a little off topic, but it's another reason I get on my soapbox about people just breeding because they want pups, rather than breeding with a very specific purpose in mind. When people make an effort to breed proven dogs, they also make an effort to place the pups they don't keep in working homes that will really test their potential, since that's the true test for whether or not you should make that cross again. And that level of rigor benefits all parties involved, from the dogs to the owners to other breeders and future enthusiasts.

And Scott, that is great you get to use Copper for so many things at your new place, I bet he's one happy dog!

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:54 pm 
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I was looking through a bunch of old threads today and found this one...which I thought was a pretty good discussion and worth bringing back to the top.

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 Post subject: Re: "Working" Lacy Dogs
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:11 pm 
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:) Thank you Courtney!! This is great info.

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