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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:17 pm 
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Lamar and I talked it over and agreed that we could not write it any better than
Leerburg Kennels.
I am attaching links to the articles that best describe what most all good trainers agree
with for establishing pack leadership.
I like this guy because he trains working breeds for jobs..meaning he truly understands the prey drive of working breeds.

http://leerburg.com/ebooks/puppygroundwork.pdf

Now for more information on other puppy issues or guidance go t the full site
http://leerburg.com/articles.htm#workpup

Julie we will still figure out away to get this info together for a blog :p

~Mis

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Nice article, and I think it is a really good starting point for new Lacy owners. This a pack oriented breed that and needs a strong pack leader. They are also a responsive and intelligent breed that usually doesn't need a heavy hand. As Frawley points out, too much force with a young dog could dampen their drive forever. Establishing leadership through appropriate methods when they are young will save everyone a lot of trouble in the long run.

You can also listen to many of the Leerburg articles as Podcasts. Go to the iTunes store and just search for "leerburg." This article along with a bunch of other useful ones are on there and they are free!

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 Post Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:54 am 
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I've read all of Frawley's free articles, get his newsletter, and bought one of his DVD's (basic puppy training, I think) and some other paid for materials. I think a lot of his material is good, but you have to take it in the context of the sizable business he has going... much of what he presents is in the vein of "this is what you do, and if you really want to use it, then just buy "X", "Y" and maybe, if you really care about your dog "Z" as well." I have no problem with the commercial aspects of it, I'm just saying that the commercial aspects can influence what is being said.

Another point is that he started as a 'traditional' trainer, and has now gone with the flow towards positive techniques. But some of his material is in the 'traditional' vein and can actually conflict with his later materials. I have no problem with that either. You should never stop learning and fining things that work better, right? But every owner has to make a decision about how they are going to work with their dog, and confusing conflicts don't help.

"Am I going to go the traditional way and correct bad behavior with punishment? I know that can work if I do it right. Am I going to use a more scientific approach? If so, how do I figure that out?"

Leerburg provides a lot of information on both approaches. What it doesn't do is provide a clear plan/path if you want to use a scientific (e.g., Operant Conditioning) approach. In part because his material was developed over a long time during which his approach has changed, he doesn't really teach the underlying theories, nor does he provide a clear path to use clicker training. He in fact advocates using a word instead of the clicker, which I did initially, in part based on his recommendation. There are several good reasons not to do this, and going 'pure clicker' has been a dramatic improvement working with Cannon. I don't think Frawley has deep knowledge in Operant Conditioning, which is what underlies both clicker training and his latest approach. Clearly he does understand prey drive, and provides some good insights on Search and Rescue, Shutzhund, etc. For me, his stuff just didn't take me where I wanted to go as well as some other materials.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:13 pm 
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Leerburg was what lead me to raw feeding. He has a ton of info, but I think that Jim is right. You can take some of his info with a grain of salt. As with all aspects of life, you use what you can and throw out the rest.

As far as his personality, I would like to buy him for a nickle and sell him for what he thinks hes worth. Sometimes when I have not a thing in the world to do, I will go read on his forum. That is a hoot. You never know when he is going to tell someone to go get screwed, but in worse words than that! If he doesnt like what you do on his forum, you are gone!! Which is ok, its his forum, but I bet that man has more enemies than you could count!

Betty

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:38 am 
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Quote:
Another point is that he started as a 'traditional' trainer, and has now gone with the flow towards positive techniques. But some of his material is in the 'traditional' vein and can actually conflict with his later materials. I have no problem with that either. You should never stop learning and fining things that work better, right? But every owner has to make a decision about how they are going to work with their dog, and confusing conflicts don't help.


Agreed, and that is why I prefer his older material.
Often I assume that people will look at material like that the way you & Mrs. Betty have..
I forget sometimes that not everyone has common sense :)) So maybe that would not be the best articles to refer everyone too..

I am back home now from our whirlwind trip around central Texas! So I'll get to work on piecing together something on establishing pack leadership. It is so VERY important with any breed but particularly with the Lacy.
There are several "trainers" I enjoy reading and have learned from so I`m not limited to Frawley. No worries ! ;)

~Mis

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Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:04 pm 
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Not a bad article. With dog training every trainer thinks they are better than the other. I see it everyday! The important thing is that you take something new out of every article you read, book you pick up, etc. I work in the working dog/law enforcement k9 world and I haven't heard good things about Frawley or Leerburg kennels in general. I have watched two of his dvds that are more for police/military k9 training but wasn't impressed due to some other videos I have seen from trainers in Germany. But you can't always believe what you hear or read!!!

At work we use clear signals training or CST. The video is geared more towards obedience and I would love to somehow get it available to the forum. I am obsessed with clear signals training and see it's benefits everyday.

Ray Allen is also a big company we use for equipment on working dogs. Haven't looked at the website but it may have some good info on building drive, pack mentality, etc. You could also check out a trainer Michael Ellis to get some more info on drive as well.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Posting a comment for Donny as he cant get on right now to post.

All my dogs have graduated from pack leader school, it's just that Billy likes to repeat certain classes. :)) :)) :))

Donny

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"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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