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 Post Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:12 pm 
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Location: Arizona
guess I missed this post, I to like to like to use stern commands for my dogs if they are not minding. I do use a Shock collar system that is good for 2 miles. Before I used the system on a dog, I tried it out on myself! My transmitter has 8 levels of shock 1 being the least 8 the highest. I got to level 3, so I wont use over that on my dog. now the further out they get the higher you need to go to conpensate for distance. I used to put the collars on the dogs and not even use them to get away from the educated dog. Most of the time I dont have to use it but it is handy when you need to get their attention. Like if they were trashing, they tend to get a one track mind and it interupts the thought process allowing you to recall the dog. I dont use them for punishment but just as an attention getter ;)

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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.--Unknown


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 Post Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Location: menard tx.
:-BD Savoy

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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:04 pm
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Location: Burnet County
Recently a trainer in whom I have a great deal of faith & respect told me something
that seemed to click.

We have used shock collars, I don't have a problem with that. I did however have a problem with "hands on" discipline. I`m a softy. Oh and AZChad I made my husband use the collar on himself before I let him use it on the dogs too :)) He knows what the highest setting feels like.

However what I was told was this > there is no lead dog in a pack other than the handler. Period. There can not be a pecking order. Every dog in the pack needs to know YOU the human are the boss. That means disciplining them the same way an alpha male would.Man or woman YOU are the Alpha dog.

In a weeks time with a whole new spring in my step and firmness in my tone, along with a few butts with boots put to them...for the first time our dogs are minding ME. Before they would do whatever Mike told them to just about..and they ignored me completely. So I am a firm believer now in physically disciplining your dog. It's that or they will discipline you..
THAT DOES NOT MEAN ABUSE YOUR DOGS. There is a huge difference.

~Mis

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 7:52 pm
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Location: Dead center of, NV
Something we've always done with our hounds is when their 3-4 months old we doc their tails. After that we don't really have much in the way of the dogs getting a mind of their own and not listening.

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"If some of our teenage thrill seekers really wanna go out and get a thrill let them go up into the northwest and tangle with a grizzly bear, polar bear a brown bear they'll get a thrill that will cleanse the soul" Fred Bear


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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:52 pm 
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Location: Arizona
Misb I agree, You need to be the pack leader and just by watching my heeler Ike you could see how he takes care of the pack. Starts with a presence, then a growl, then he will pin them down by thier snout! Now if I get there I usually let him take care of the problem. example, I can leave a pair of shoes or boots outside and they will not be touched. If they are he will put the other dog down, physically. He doest take it to extreems or even draw blood usually. Now I will step in if I feel he is getting carried away. If he messes up I will pin him down and he knows im the boss. Now for the funny part, If I have the two lacys out, and I get after him or my other male heeler, they will bay the heeler up in the trees :)) its the danged thing ive seen....and it pisses the heelers off but they cant do anything till I call the lacies off :D

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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.--Unknown


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 Post Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Location: Burnet County
too funny! :)) not surprising though..

I have two males that are literally just a week apart in age, both have strike dog capabilities in the woods UNLESS they are together 8-| we had thought that they would work out their pecking order so to speak and be done with it. NOPE and now it is becoming a problem in the woods. That is officially mine & Mike's (my husband) new project. Ox & Jagd are learning that neither of them are the boss..they are equals and will equally get their rear ends busted if they act up.

Hopefully before too long they can be back in the woods together striking hogs like they are supposed to be... :YMPRAY:

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Since I started using almost exclusively R+ conditioning with Cannon, specifically clicker training as part of our agility work, I've also been reading up on the theory behind the method. It's basically an extension of Pavlov's work. Pavlov led to B.F. Skinner, and some of his students became part of the marine mammal training programs that devised much of the modern positive reinforcement techniques. I guess punishment doesn’t work too well with killer whales, especially if you are in the tank with them. I think Shamu’s response is typically “Boot up whose butt?” [-x Anyway, Karen Pryor is considered by many to be the god-mother of clicker training, and I’ve been reading her book “Don’t Shoot the Dog”. Some key points of hers that apply here are these:

1. Positive reinforcement works on any animal, period. Pryor trained a hermit crab to turn on a light for food. You can definitely use it on people to influence their behavior. They won’t even know it is happening, but they will become trained. Heck they will even be trained if they know you are trying to do it and don’t want it to happen! Operant conditioning works at a level that is almost impossible to prevent. Read Clockwork Orange, and you’ll get the idea.

2. Once you have conditioned a response, it actually becomes stronger if you only sporadically reward the behavior, as opposed to rewarding it every time. :-? This is a very important point, because…

3. Many unwanted behaviors are self rewarding. Things like barking, pulling on a leash, running after a rabbit. So if you don’t punish that behavior every single time it happens, you are actually reinforcing it. :-o It is being sporadically rewarded, which is the strongest conditioning there is. This is why things like pulling on a leash can be so tough to stop using punishment – there is a reward anytime you don’t punish the behavior, and that works against the times you do punish it.

So regardless of whether you have an “aversion to aversion training” for whatever reason, there is a great reason to use primarily positive reinforcement. It works faster, and with longer lasting results. ^:)^

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:05 pm 
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Great post Jim. Was just at Sea World last weekend and saw a couple of shows with Killer Whales. To me it is the best example of Positive Reinforcement. It is the only way to get the whales to do what they are asked to do. Plus, how do you punish a whale? Right? The performance proved the opportunities available with animals when using Positive Reinforcement. You also made a very good point about not rewarding the dog or any animal every single time it performs a task. By doing this you are keeping interest high, focus high, and willingness to please present. We do this at work all the time and it truly produces some amazing results when we are commanding the dogs to perform a task.

I thought I would post this as well. I find it very interesting because if you think about how you interact with your dog in certain situations or on a daily basis you can see all the types of training you are actually performing. Every dog is different and every dog is going to need a mixture of training methods with positive reinforcement being stressed.

1. Positive Reinforcement: when we give a reward and the behavior increases or is maintained as a result, we call this positive reinforcement (+R). E.g. dog sits when asked, we give a treat. Dog learns to sit when asked in future.
2. Negative Reinforcement: when we take something unpleasant away and the behavior increases or is maintained as a result, we call this negative reinforcement (-R). E.g. we ask dog to sit, pulling up on collar, dog sits, we release pressure from the collar. Dog learns to sit when asked in future.
3. Positive Punishment: when we do something unpleasant and the behavior is decreased or eliminated as a result, we call this positive punishment (+P). E.g. dog goes to investigate kitchen bench for food, we make a sharp noise. Dog learns not to investigate kitchen benches for food in future.
4. Negative Punishment: when we take away something the dog wants or enjoys and the behavior is decreased or eliminated as a result, we call this negative punishment (-P). E.g. dog plays too roughly with another more timid dog, we leash rough dog and remove the opportunity to play. Dog learns not to play too roughly in future.
5. Extinction: when behavior is no longer reinforced and it eventually goes away, we call this extinction. E.g. dog is used to being allowed outside when he whines at the door, but is suddenly no longer allowed out when he whines. Dog learns not to whine at the door. Extinction sometimes makes the target behavior worse before it gets better, sometimes significantly. This is known as an “extinction burst” and is usually a sign that the behavior is about to diminish rapidly. In the current example, the dog might whine more often, more loudly, and for longer periods before learning that whining doesn’t work for him any more.

Chris

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