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 Post subject: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:37 pm 
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Okay, well... all this time I've been thinking that I had a pretty passive dog for a Lacy, since Cannon would usually want to get behind me at the first sign of aggression from another dog (especially if it was a lot bigger ;). But then we were at a park watching my wife play in her women's sand volleyball league (not what I'd call tough duty, by the way :ymdevil: ), and of course there were other dogs there. There was a guy with a Golden and some other dog and all the dogs wanted to reach other to get acquainted. He asks if Cannon is friendly, and I say "sure" and we let them start going through their routine. But then I start to see all the signs that trouble was brewing, and sure enough pretty quick Cannon went from tail-wagging to hackles raised and started trying to mix it up with the Golden... I had to take him away to somewhere he would forget about whatever the other dog did to get him riled.

He's also become much more food-aggressive. He has always growled if you touch him after you give him his food, but now gets -really- grumpy about it. The sounds are enough to curl your blood, and he snapped at me the other night when I tried to calm him down.

Now that he is about to hit a year old, he's become a "Don't mess with (a) Texas (dog)"

No hogs here, so I'm looking up the agility club.

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:56 pm 
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From my experience, dogs tend to be much more aggressive when they're on-leash. Maybe that was the problem in your situation.

I've never had a food-aggressive dog, so I can't give any advice there.

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:39 pm 
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I feed all of my dogs out of chow hound feeders. Ive never had the aggression problems, other than fresh bones...lol when they are hungry they eat when they arnt they dont. my dogs dont get overweight from it, even my bluetick....

as for being dog agressive, yes! all my dogs are if the dog is not from my pack and i dont let them know the dog is ok. i brought the 2.5 year old bluetick home, let him out of the dog box and sat there with all of my dogs letting them know he was ok. when one tried to get aggressive toward him, i let them know who the pack leader was! it takes time and by your post you can see the signs when cannon has had enough. as for him growling at you, we would have some problems. If one of my dogs growls at me he better be playing or he will be put in his place. I would take away whatever ever it is that he thinks belongs to him and not give it back for awhile. then let him have back and take it again. if he growls scold him and let him know thats not acceptable. I can take meat, bones or what ever from any of my dogs.
just my opinion jim?

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:00 am 
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Well, dog aggression tends to be based on the individual dog, I think. Levi is not the kind of dog to start a fight, but he sure will jump in one if another dog is barking and growling at him! And Chula can be a little more mean. If she gets tired of playing with another dog, she'll just turn around and snap at him. You need to take careful judgement in the dogs you will introduce Cannon to. If they are acting odd, don't let them come over -- a wagging tail doesn't always mean a happy dog! When they do come to meet you dog, don't give him too much slack in the lead and correct him with a hard pop in the lead if he gets growly. Sometimes it is best to introduce dogs in a less populated area, especially if you feel he may be liable to bite anyone. Dogs are more comfortable being socailized in a backyard with the family. Try having a family friend and their dog over and let them and Cannon play while you are outside supervising.

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:05 am 
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As for food aggression...

Levi used to be food aggressive, but it's not hard to train your dogs off of that unless they are always competing for the food or really are just flat out aggressive dogs. Whenever I give Levi his food, I make him sit and be calm while I get his bowl ready, but don't let me follow me around and beg. If he's stayed calm, I put his bowl down in front of him and stand there for a while and pet his back, neck, and ears -- any dog doesn't really like an annoying hand in their face while they're eating, so avoid the face. If at any time he growls or shows aggression towards me, I remove the food, smack him hard on the butt, and flip him over onto his back in submissive mode. If you haven't done this before, the pup might be scared and pee alittle. Hold him there, gently, for a minute or so, and then let him up. Never punish a dog while he is in this position, making him do this is enough. At first, this may seem like a huge fight and the dog won't want to submit, but the dog will realize that he needs to be submissive to you after a couple times. After he gets up, don't pet him or anything, but make him sit down again and then give him back his food. It is important for the puppy to learn at a young age that they aren't the master of the house!

Please let me know how Cannon does with this. :) My dogs seem to be controlable, but it's hard to judge what a dog needs when you're not standing there with him. Some dogs do not respond to being dominated, but all of mine know the "pack order" at my house.

-- Rachael Connally

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:28 am 
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Maybe I've been over-tolerant of Cannon when it comes to food. I feed him "prey-model", which is based on what and how a wolf eats, and I do my best to emulate pack dynamics when it comes to behavior issues. So I certainly make him wait to eat, and I can set the food down and have him sit or lay there as long as I want - he won't take it until I give him permission. Same thing for going through gates, getting in and out of the car, etc. But once I've given food to him, it is his, and he knows that. In a pack, the alpha doesn't give something, and then take it back, and any member of a pack knows better than to mess with a pack member who is eating - doing otherwise would get your face ripped off.

But as I say, I'm probably carrying the whole natural pack behavior thing too far, and so I'll make sure he understands he can't lacerate some unsuspecting pack member that doesn't respect his food rights.

As far as the dog aggression, he is absolutely fine with dogs he knows, and also with dogs that are obviously playfull (pups in particular). He plays with the boxer next door almost every day. Last time he was off lead and a dog was on lead, he bayed the other dog, bouncing all around him while making everyone trying to catch him look like idiots :? And he does fine in crowds where others are walking their dogs. I'll have to find some more of those situations to get some more socialization in.

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:12 pm 
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sounds like he just didnt like the golden. I know when i lived in another town and ike was a pup he grew up with a border collie next door, as he aged he hated that dog and there was nothing i could do to cure it. lucky for me the dog was always jumping in my yard and not the other way around. When I go to my grandparents house Sage will not let their dog come close to me. he doesnt do it in a mean way, but he will throw his hips into the dog so hard it knocks her out of the way. He will then keep himself between her and myself. maybe cannon was just havin a bad day, or didnt want to be messed with?

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:37 pm 
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I have no trouble with my dogs and food aggression. I feed them all out of a bowl, which they immediately take the food out of. They are fed just a few feet apart. They will growl if one gets too close to their food, but they tolerate the others as long as the dont think the other is too close. They tend to eat their own food and ignore the others. I can reach down and take the food, altho I dont like to, but they will certainly let me take it. Sometimes I give the wrong dog the wrong food or something like that. Then, I have to take it away. They will get more aggressive over bones than they will the meat. I do sit and watch them eat, as one gets thru earlier than the other, it might decide to take some of the others food. They used to be a lot worse about growling at each other, but I let them know that its not nice and they have learned to eat and be nice. Dont know if that was just the way things went, or if it was something that I did. I dont have strict training rules, just let them know whats wrong or right by a firm no and sometimes a swat.

Abe has a little difficutly with be aggressive. But, he is young yet and is learning. He is also pretty protective. I certainly dont want to destroy that. Lucy and Larry are quietly protective, but Abe isnt.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:12 pm 
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Obedience class...and a job !

Agility is a good physical outlet for Lacy Dogs but could prove to be difficult to accomplish if he is showing dog aggression.

I know running hogs is not an option for you BUT how about blood trials? That is something you can literally do with him every day and come hunting season you can run you some adds for tracking services. Or talk to local taxidermist & leases so Cannon's name is out there as who to call when you can't find your critter..
Or try treeing training & events.

DISCIPLINE is hugely important ..especially if he is growling & nipping at you..YOU are the boss NOT him.
Can NOT stress that near enough..you do not have to abuse a dog to discipline him/her
They will abuse you however if you don't teach them who the boss is.

He is hitting that age where things like this tend to come up..I have no doubt that you will get it under control ;)

~Mis

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 1:44 pm 
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Because of my experience with Sadie and seeing how well the new training program is working, I'd recommend you be proactive about nipping this in the bud. I think the majority of Sadie's issues steamed from her not having a job. And then there were her crazy genetics. But I also let her get away with too many things when she was a pup, like stealing bones from other dogs or being overly protective of me. I was hesitant about harsh corrections because I had never met a dog that needed a really firm hand. As you can tell from my stories, add the lack of job with a lack of firm leadership with a naturally dominate personality and the results aren't pretty 8-|

All the pack leader stuff you're doing is really good, but I'd step it up a notch. Make him really look to you for direction, not simply go through the motions you've trained him to do. Lacys are too smart, Cannon knows he has to wait for you to give him food, he knows he has to let you walk through doors first, so he might not associate that with dominance any more. It sounds like he is starting to test you in new ways, see exactly what he can and cannot get away with. When Sadie started to do that, I let a lot of it slide because it didn't seem serious. Well, it got serious, and now I have to go all the way back to the beginning to fix it.

Lamar has me walking Sadie on the pinch collar, since pulling on a flat collar or martingale actually ramps up her aggression. When we walk, she has to be right at my side, and if she gets ahead or tries to crowd me, she gets a small correction. If she starts looking around too much and doesn't keep checking in with me, she gets a small correction. If she actually tries to lunge at something, she gets a big correction. Making her focus on me, at all times no matter what the situation, is working really well. She is paying more attention to me all the time and seems more stable. My hope is that the next time she wants to rip a dog's face off, she'll actually think about me before reacting, and that's what Cannon should do too.

As far as the food, even if another pack member would get corrected for taking his food, you should be so alpha that you can do anything. Lacys are so pack oriented, they just love to push those boundaries, and if he thinks he can correct you for taking food, that means he thinks the food is his. Guess what, you bought it, you gave it to him, it is never his, even when he has it in his mouth. We worked on that with Sadie as well, not because she has food aggression towards me, but because it was another area to express unnecessary dominance. Right now I can walk up to her chomping on a chicken quarter and say "Leave it" and she'll spit it out. So start feeding him with his collar and leash on. Give him his food and let him start to eat it. Then try to take it away. If he gives you attitude, correct him and jerk him away from the food. If he gets more pissed, you get more pissed, increasing the correction to the degree of his aggression. Just don't back down.

And yes, I agree that this is the time to get him a job. I think that is the number one thing you can do to fix a Lacy's behavioral issues. Though the physical aspect is important, the biggest part is the mental stimulation. Keep their brains busy and you get a much more stable dog. I do think agility is a good idea. He's the perfect age to start, and it sounds like he has the energy and drive to kick butt. Just tell people that he needs his space during the first class so he doesn't start playing with other dogs and see it as another venue for testing pack dynamics. Sadie really loves agility, and because it is all about our connection, I don't have to worry too much about dog aggression. You may also want to look into herding clubs, because that will give him an outlet for his prey drive that agility doesn't quite satisfy.

I searched Clean Run, and these people look like the best options in Phoenix. Check them out and let me know what you think. I'd love to hear stories about another Lacy training for agility!

Top Notch Canines
Debbie Strieter
http://www.topnotchcanines.com/
Email: azdas@qwest.net
5201 W. Park View Lane
Glendale, AZ 85310
602-743-3214

Phoenix Flyers Dog Agility Training
Chris Hill
Email: chrishill.k9@cox.net
Alternate Email: phoenixflyers@cox.net
7602 W. John Cabot Road
Glendale, AZ 85308
(602) 938-0598 or (602) 738-2115

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 8:30 pm 
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Thanks for the input and Phoenix research, Julie. I've already contacted Debbie Strieter, and they have an intro class starting in June. The other club you mentioned is affiliated, and uses the same (indoor) facility, which isn't too far away. There are I think 4 instructors that teach there, and Debbie and Chris are two of them.

I definitely think Cannon has the 'right stuff' for agility, but I know that is also true for a number of other jobs. He absolutely loves tracking, but that would be mostly a training thing. Deer season here is short, so it would be more of a 'tracking game'. Not that I have a problem with that. One of the advantages of using a 'sport' for a 'job', is that you have control over the frequency, and it can be on a regular schedule. And given my nature, I need something with a defined schedule, and to be working towards a definite goal. Agility would provide that more than the other options, and that is the primary reason I am leaning that way. It's also something I have room to practice on our property, whereas blood-trailing means finding a place and driving there to get started.

I'd love something even more physically demanding than agility, but I think the mental challenge is the key. He gets plenty of exercise. He needs the mental challenge and the bonding/discipline involved in working something like agility (or herding) with me. By the way, we did do a herding evaluation when he was much younger, at the annual agility championships here in Phoenix (Cynosport). There is a local herding group that set up a demonstration pen and would put your dog through the exercise. Despite his age, Cannon showed the right attitude/aptitude. Some young dogs don't show any inclination, but once he realized he could mess with the goats, he got into it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Is there anywhere down there that you could get into the dock dogs? I think these dogs would do great at it! they are fast, swim hard, and can out jump anything ive seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:09 pm 
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Chad,

Just for fun and to cool off after flyball...I tried Remi at dock diving this last weekend. She is still getting past the...why and the heck do I need to do this again and you want me to get what...since I'm out here, I'll jump but I'm getting out as fast as I can! :))

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:59 am 
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Billy got to where he was very defensive over his food when he was younger and smaller, because my older dogs would take it away. Tia (Elderly Female Choc. Lab) can get down right mean if she wants the others food. We still had Billy sleeping in his kennel at night and Ann started feeding him in there so that he could eat. He would bark and growl if some one came close. I didn't like that too well, but for some reason didn't stop it.

Later on as he got bigger and learned to sleep in our room, he got to eat out with the other dogs in the kitchen. He would bark and growl and no one was in there. He just thought he had to to protect his food! X( Well, one weekend when I was home, he made the mistake of growling at me when I went to pet him while he was eating. =; X( BIG MISTAKE on his part. We quickly had a discussion on the floor with me on top of him. We discussed who was large and in charge and he found out it wasn't him. :-o I then took his food bowl away and made him sit there while I placed it down and made him not eat. Then I let him eat and I would take the bowl away again. We did this couple of more times and then I would stick my hand down in his food and get some with him eating. To say the least he got the message and that message was that he could eat, but that food was still mine! ;)

He has his moments, not lately though, when he tries to test me. A while back one night I was heading to the bedroom from the kitchen and Billy was in the doorway. I scooted him along and he kinda turned back and snipped at me. He did not touch me, just a little "hey, quit pushing me". He forgot what he was doing for a sec. We went over who was in charge again as I lay on top of him holding his head to the floor. I use the alpha dog method of putting him in his place. It works but he can be a handful to get down and on top of. They are squirmy dogs!

He backtalks some, but not really in a bad way. I tend to laugh when he does it. Annie doesn't let him get away with much when I am gone and it seems to show when I am home. She makes him go to bed and not get up. It's funny cause his bed is next to my side of the bed and he likes me quite a bit and always comes and tries to get up on the bed with me. Annie says he just does that when I am there. When he comes in the house from outside, the first thing he does is run into our bedroom and jump on the bed and get under my arm. Our house is small and I tend to veg on the bed with the laptop and Annie and the kids make more use of the small living room.

He was a rough with Wyatt some. Mainly knocking him down and then proceeding to lick him and rough house with him. Wyatt didn't like it. I told him not to take it, (he would turn his back and try to run), but really at the time Wyatt was a little small to stop him. He snapped at Jacqueline often but I told her to smack him when he did that and to not let him get away with it. She took right to that. She took no lip from Billy when I told her what to do. I was a little scared he might hurt her, but she let's him know who is boss.

He doesn't seem to like girls that are new to him. He for the longest time would growl and bark at Taylor, the kids somewhat cousin. One weekend I finally gave her a bag of chips and told her to go to the kitchen and make friends with him. It worked! :)) I used that method with the little girl across the street also. He has no problems with them now.

Now that I typed all that I forget what the OP was about! :)) I seem to recall something about eating habits in the OP. :ymblushing:

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 Post subject: Re: Hruh Hroh
 Post Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:15 am 
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BigfootWRL wrote:
He was a rough with Wyatt some. Mainly knocking him down and then proceeding to lick him and rough house with him. Wyatt didn't like it. I told him not to take it, (he would turn his back and try to run)..


Running from a lacy? LOL. That's not going to work too well!

I've been less tolerant of his growling when eating, and he has calmed down a lot. He had the neighbor's boxer over for a play date the other day and the Boxer dug up a meaty pork shoulder bone Cannon had buried. He finally got it away from the Boxer, but she isn't raw fed and I didn't want her to get it back, so I took it from Cannon. I made him 'wait' and sit, which he did even with all the excitement, then I grabbed it in his mouth and made him let it go. No growling at all, but this was a strange situation. He still needs work on it.

I find out next weekend if the beginning agility class will be on a night we can attend. The instructor is trying to combine a couple of other classes, and it depends on which class is combined with which. This is the instructor (Debbie Strieter) I really want, so I'm hoping it isn't scheduled for the night my wife and reserve for date night.

All the agility classes around here have waiting lists :-(

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