NLDA Forum for Working Lacy Dogs

Facts on Lacy foundation breeds
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Author:  MisB [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Facts on Lacy foundation breeds

Given the information we have been receiving from Stan, I have been doing some research (as usual)
Now what I am going to post does not mean it is absolute, it only proves that it is an absolute possibility.

First issue; the question of the English Shepard being around during the time of the Lacy conception. Answer is yes

┬ęCopyright 2004, United Kennel Club, Inc.
Revised January 1, 2008


According to legend, the English Shepherd is a combination of native dogs of the British Isles and the Roman sheep and cattle dog brought to the British Isles by Caesar when he invaded in 55 B.C.

Romans used these dogs to herd the livestock brought along to feed the troops. As the livestock was depleted, surplus dogs were left along the way, and were used by local natives and interbred with existing types of dogs with similar herding talents to intensify those instincts.
The English Shepherd was brought to the American colonies by some of the first settlers and followed the development of the United States from east to west. This multi-purpose breed was highly prized as it was used to herd valuable livestock and to protect the isolated homesteads.

The United Kennel Club is the original registrar of the English Shepherd and has recognized them since 1927.

I highlighted the most relevant part of the info on the breed as per the U.K.C.
here is the link to the rest of it


Author:  Julie N [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts To Remember

Mis, the entire standard is eerily reminiscent of the Lacy...

"A medium-sized dog of sturdy balance and harmonious proportions, built for speed and maneuverability."

"Energetic, intelligent, very active, agile, courageous and gritty. Fearless for their purpose. Acting immediately when commanded, and very responsive to the master's voice."

And the physical description is extremely similar to the standard we've developed. Even the size, 19-23 inches (20-21 preferred) and 45-60 lbs for males, 18 to 22 inches (19-20 preferred) and 40-50 pounds for females, is in the same ball park.

The biggest physical difference I see is the coat. Obviously that is one thing that was bred out. But from the UKC description, if you shaved the long coat off an English Shepherd, the dog underneath would look like a Lacy. Honestly, given all that, what sounds more likely, a big ole lumbering scent hound or an English Shepherd?

One big difference, working style, was addressed in the Hog Dog article. The English Shepherd wasn't well adapted to feral pigs because it was a low heeling dog. To properly work hogs, they need something a little more flexible, that would predominantly head but wouldn't be afraid to spin a hog around. I'm still curious as to how they got that from the greyhound and wolf. I do know a lot of Aussies mix greyhound into their pig dogs, so maybe we can do some research with the modern hunters as to why that breed works well in hog dog crosses. More than anything, it was probably selective breeding, picking the mixes that had the desired working style and building from that.

Author:  MisB [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts To Remember

The Greyhound

The Greyhound is a very old breed probably originating in the eastern Mediterranean region and has been used to course a variety of game over a variety of terrain at extreme speed for thousands of years. This very useful purpose, along with its calm and sunny disposition towards people, enabled Greyhounds to come to the New World with the earliest conquistadors, explorers, and settlers. In later times, coursing was developed as a sport in the United States as in England and France, and there were coursing clubs in various regions through the 1890s. As interest in the sport of dog showing began in the late 1870s, many coursing people in America also exhibited their dogs. Greyhounds were being shown as early as 1877 when eighteen were entered at the first annual Westminster Dog Show.

The Greyhound is considered to be the oldest pure breed in existence. Various theories estimate it to be as much as 7,000 years old, but it is generally accepted to be about 4,000 years old. As far back as pre-Christian times, the Greyhound had become a world traveler, having been taken to Europe, including England, throughout Greece and to the Orient.

The breed was universally regarded for its sighthound capabilities and was always the favorite in coursing competitions. Greyhound racing is well known throughout the world even though negative connotations have recently been applied to the sport because of the alleged mass production of Greyhounds for racing, while only a small percentage are actually used and the remaining are disposed of.

The Greyhound was recognized by the United Kennel Club in 1914.

Another site to check out to see the "differences" in Greyhounds outside of the AKC or UKC learn more here

Author:  MisB [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts To Remember

This link has some of the most amazing information of the evolution of the wolf and how that pertains to canines.
Check it out!!

Author:  MisB [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts To Remember

Given that early Lacys (people) came from the Ohio River Valley I took a look to varify that wolves were there during that time they were/are.

More info on woves in the South during that time another informative site


Author:  Betty L. [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts To Remember

I thought that ya'll might enjoy this from Mis' wolf website.


Wolves have been known to wash mud from there coats in rivers and streams, wolves depend on thier thick coats in winter, so it is not surprising that they spend part of thier leisure time in grooming behavior. It is also likely that the grooming of other pack members helps reinforce the social bonds the tie the pack together. Two wolves will lick each others coats, nibbling gently with thier teeth to remove foreign matter. Reciprocal grooming is especially common during courtship. Injured wolves are intensely groomed by other pack members, providing both physical and mental comfort.

I think that I posted this, maybe on the chat group, but at any rate, I sent Julie a picture showing Lucy pulling those little cactus thorns from Larrys legs. She will smell down his leg looking for the thorns, then she nibbles to pull them out.


Author:  Julie N [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts on Lacy foundation breeds

I couldn't resist doing some research on the old style coursing greyhounds to see how there size has changed over the years. Currently, show greyhounds 27-30 inches and 60-70 pounds. But racing greyhounds are smaller, starting at 24 inches and 40 pounds. It sounds like dogs from the nineteenth century, which is the type the Lacys would have had, were even smaller.

From ... ound.shtml:
Various opinions have been advanced as to the best size and weight for a Greyhound. Like horses, Greyhounds run in all forms, and there is no doubt that a really good big one will always have an advantage over the little ones; but it is so difficult to find the former, and most of the chief winners of the Waterloo Cup have been comparatively small. Coomassie was the smallest Greyhound that ever won the blue ribbon of the leash; she drew the scale at 42 lbs., and was credited with the win of the Cup on two occasions. Bab at the Bowster, who is considered by many good judges to have been the best bitch that ever ran, was 2 lbs. more; she won the Cup once, and many other stakes, as she was run all over the country and was not kept for the big event. Master McGrath was a small dog, and only weighed 53 lbs., but he won the Waterloo Cup three times.

And I found this excerpt, from the book "The Greyhound" published in 1886, very interesting:

Continental greyhounds were the same variety of swift dogs, there being different names for the larger dogs of the chase, the matins and alaunts. In France we find the levrier retaining the size which is shown in the Roman and Greek statuary, a dog of about 18 inches at the shoulder...

When coursing deer came to an end what little remaining use there had been for large greyhound in England was at and end and he became the coursing dog of to-day. From that time we can reckon that the size of the greyhound became settled as it was found that a medium-sized, correctly built dog could defeat a larger, less clever dog in handling the hare under the rules of coursing which had been drawn up the Duke of Norfolk at the request of Queen Elizabeth.

Author:  Julie N [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts on Lacy foundation breeds

And here is a little more on the history of greyhound in Texas, from

A few greyhounds existed in North America from colonial times. A greyhound kept the German-born colonial military leader, Baron von Steuben, company through a long winter at Valley Forge. Greyhounds were imported to North America in large numbers from Ireland and England in the mid-1800s not to course or race, but to rid midwest farms of a virtual epidemic of jackrabbits that was ruining their farms. Greyhounds also were used to hunt down coyotes who were killing livestock. They became familiar sights on farms and ranches in Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Texas. Americans soon discovered that greyhounds could be a source of sport. One of the first national coursing meets was held in Kansas in 1886.

Author:  MisB [ Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts on Lacy foundation breeds

The Lacy family came out of Kentucky where at one time both the red & gray wolf were plentiful until they had bounties placed on them in the late 1800's
This site has some info about that

The Lacys (family)were then said to have traveled and stayed in a couple of other states along the way to the Texas Hill Country. One of those states is said to be Tennessee ..
The Wolf River was named for the red wolf that once roamed Southwest Tennessee. Now absent from the state, a population of red wolves have been reintroduced in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park in East Tennessee.

more info

The other state is said to be Missouri :
Red wolves originally occurred from central Texas to Florida and north to the Carolinas, Kentucky, southern Illinois, and southern Missouri (Young and Goldman 1944). Years of predator control and habitat conversion had, by 1970, reduced the range of the red wolf to coastal areas of southeastern Texas and possibly southwestern Louisiana. When red wolf populations became low, interbreeding with coyotes became a serious problem. In the mid1970s, biologists captured the last few red wolves for captive breeding before the species was lost to hybridization. The red wolf was considered extinct in the wild until 1987, when reintroductions began.

During the 1800s, gray wolves ranged over the North American continent as far south as central Mexico

Thus supporting (not proving) that the use of a wolf was very possible.

Author:  dhulsey [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts on Lacy foundation breeds

I have done a little research and I do believe they probably are the desecendants of the english sheperd. I looked up the charateristics and they both are remarkably close much closer to a sheperd than a hound, this also helps clarify in my mind, where the tri colored comes from. They are protective just like a lacy, they also retrieve unlike hounds and they also work fowl unlike any hound blood line. They are stock workers unlike a wolf, coyote, hound or greyhound.The real deal winner for me is they are intellegent unlike a hound. My female sometimes crouchs when she is stocking something or something is coming to her. I've always wonder where that came from. If you read these two small articles and know anything about a lacy it's hard not believe it. the first paragraph of this one put's them in the right time period

Author:  dhulsey [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Facts on Lacy foundation breeds

The very first paragraph in wikipedia on English Shepards says it all I do believe Ed Lacy was right.

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