Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ

Board index » Dr. Dog » Breeding & Genetics




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: eyes
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:06 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:46 pm
Posts: 4640
So, what determines the color of the lacys eyes?

Betty

_________________
Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:00 pm
Posts: 531
Location: La Vernia, TX.
Good question! I'm interested to know why some people say that all Lacys should have bright orange eyes? Levi's are kind of chocolatey brown and I know I've seen other Lacys like that, too...

_________________
"One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
-- Shakespeare

My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11972487@N04/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:28 am
Posts: 285
Location: Bel Aire, KS
My dog has wolf yellow or coyote yellow depending on how you look at it...


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:17 am 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:27 am
Posts: 2456
Location: SoCal
With the exception of blue related to the merle gene, which can cause deafness and has been extensively studied, the subtle genetics of eye color hasn't been as thoroughly explored as coat color. But JP Yousha, a science writer and Great Dane breeder who has become a master at explaining canine genetics to laypeople, has the most comprehensive article about it: http://www.chromadane.com/2000EyeColor.htm.

Here are the highlights that relate to Lacys...

Iris color is inherited independently of coat color. But coat color, especially dilution, can influence eye color. This is key for Lacys since the entire population is dilute.

There are three alleles for eye pigment. Ir, ir^m and ir^y. Which means there are six possible color combination. It is an incompletely dominant series, so they affect one another rather than canceling one another out. And remember, these are the base color, before you add the dilution on top of them.

Ir/Ir=BK(black-brown or black-velvet eye)
Ir/ir^m=Dk(dark-brown eye)
Ir/ir^y=M1(medium-brown eye-heterozygous)
ir^m/ir^m=M2(medium-brown eye-homozygous)
ir^m/ir^y=ML(medium-light eye)
ir^y/ir^y=L(light eye)

Yousha goes on to describe how these color would appear in dilute dd dogs. She points out that these are observed colors, not scientific names, and are a rough guideline.

Ir/Ir=BK(black-brown or black-velvet eye)
becomes chocolate in a blue dilute (B_/dd/E_)
becomes dark cinnamon a red dilute (B_/dd/ee)
becomes clear coffee in a gray dilute (bb/dd/E_)

Ir/ir^m=Dk(dark-brown eye)
becomes khaki-grey/brown color in a blue
becomes red cinnabar in a red
becomes hazel in a gray

Ir/ir^y=M1(medium-brown eye-heterozygous)
becomes amber in a blue
becomes hazel in a red
becomes yellow in a gray

ir^m/ir^m=M2(medium-brown eye-homozygous)
becomes amber in a blue
becomes hazel in a red
becomes yellow in a gray

ir^m/ir^y=ML(medium-light eye)
becomes yellow in a blue
becomes yellow in a red
becomes "clear" (pale yellowish green) in a gray

ir^y/ir^y=L(light eye)
becomes "clear" (pale yellowish green) in all dilutes

I would question whether or not Ir exists in Lacys. Though not as prominent as breeding for dilute coats, people have bred for light eyes. But I think Sadie and Levi are about as dark as it gets. They could be Ir/ir^y amber, but I bet they are ir^m/ir^m amber.

Image

Rachel, it'll be interesting to see what the Levi-Chula pups come out as since Chula has lighter eyes.

Amber, same with Sunny's litter. Since she's a red and still has such light eyes, I'd bet she is a ir^y/ir^y.

Image

And Larry and Monster make an interesting comparison since they're both out of Bull but one is a gray bb/dd and the other is a blue B_/dd. They could both be ir^m/ir^y, but Larry has pale eyes since he is gray and Monster has yellow eyes because he is blue.

Image

Image

The reason I've never included this is because it's a lot of conjecture. Much more guessing is involved than with the coat colors. We'd have to start tracking a couple litters to see how eye color genetics work in real life with Lacys.

For additional reading, this site on Border Collie eye colors talks about the relationship between the coat and iris colors, http://www.bordercolliecolors.com/borde ... color.html, but it doesn't give real genetic explanation Yousha does.

_________________
"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:29 am 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:48 pm
Posts: 2226
Location: Alto, TX
That's interesting. Both of my blues have much darker (yellow) eyes than Sunny. I think they are ir^m/ir^y?

Image

Image

_________________
“We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It’s the best deal man has ever made.”
M. Facklam


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:28 am
Posts: 285
Location: Bel Aire, KS
Image

Image

Image

Image

How'd the last one slip in? I always joke and send that picture to people out of state when they ask me how big the bugs in Texas get!!!! :))


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:22 am 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:27 am
Posts: 2456
Location: SoCal
I think my Lacy does that scorpion pose quite often :)) As Jim pointed out, it seems to be the uniervsal language for "Back the f up!" in the animal kingdom.

Image

But anywho... Moonshine's look like a great example of the pale yellowish-green Yousha describes. She said it almost looks like vintage Coke bottle green. Since Moonshine is a bb/dd/ee, it makes sense that he would have some of the lightest eyes. Very interesting indeed.

Amber, that is so cool Aggie and Piper have almost identical coloring. It shows they really do pass that along in a logical manner. Gosh, logic behind color genetics, a novel concept /:) But it does make me realize that, in addition the color of the nose leather, this is another way to see whether or not a dog is B_ or bb. Gray puppies (bb) will always have lighter eyes than their blue counterparts (B_). Of course the nose leather is easiest to tell when they are very young before sun exposure, and the eye color you can't really tell until they are several months old. But I'm sure we can all make enough charts and keep enough notes to figure out eye color genetics too :-

If anyone has good pictures showing the eye color of two parents and their offspring, post them up. And it helps if they are in natural light, a flash will affect how we see the color of the iris.

_________________
"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:04 pm
Posts: 1677
Location: Burnet County
Now I have to go take pictures.. :)) in order to get a picture of Heidie's eyes.
You have one of Brutus right? I know I do but I`m not as organized with my pics as what you
are Miss. Julie... :-

I`m gearing up for the headache that always follows genetic exploration of the Lacy :))

_________________
M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:34 am 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:46 pm
Posts: 4640
Very interesting!! I will have to get some closeups of Lucy and her pups. Lucy has such bright yellow eyes. Jazz has those bright yellow eyes, but I will have to work on getting pics of the others in that litter. I would like to follow the eye color, just for fun.

Out of the litter between Lucy and Larry, Shelby, I think will have the same color eyes as Larry. Her eyes right now are pretty much the same color as she is and I think Larrys were that way when he was that age.

I dont understand all of this stuff, but it is still interesting to me.

Betty

_________________
Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:00 pm
Posts: 531
Location: La Vernia, TX.
Chula x Levi is going to be interesting. They're both basically on opposite sides of the Lacy spectrum. Levi is big, blue, dark-eyed, and out of Graham's stock while Chula is compact, red, light-eyed and out of Jimmy's and Shep's stock. I have no doubts that their pups will have some good working abilities and instincts, but I can't guess what they'll look like. We will be keeping a few to hunt with, so I guess we'll see.

_________________
"One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
-- Shakespeare

My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11972487@N04/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:04 pm
Posts: 1677
Location: Burnet County
Heidi's eyes..Oh dear Lord she wouldn't be still.. :)) I have few pics of her because of that..
And to think she is almost 3 and still acts like a pup !

Image

Image

It doesn't help that she had just been swimming and kept slinging mud on me.. 8-|

_________________
M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:28 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:27 am
Posts: 2456
Location: SoCal
Mis, did any of those Heidi-Brutus pups turn out with dark eyes? It might give some interesting insight into the way bb reds express eye color. I'm pretty sure Heidi is a ir^m/ir^m. Depending on the effect of bb/dd/ee, Brutus is either Ir/ir^y or ir^m/ir^y, which are pretty different genetically but come out looking them same depending on the coat color interaction. I'm pretty sure Abby is a ir^m/ir^y.

Image

Rachel, I'm pretty curious about how that litter will turn out too! My advice is to pick the smallest out of the litter, that show drive of course, to keep. I know Levi meets standard, but he is on the tall side, and he has those big gene lurking. And by the way, kudos on keeping several out of the litter. I know a lot of hog doggers believe you shouldn't buy a pup from a litter unless the breeder is keeping at least one for themselves, it show their commitment to the cross and their belief that it will make good hunting dogs. Not bad advice.

_________________
"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:00 pm
Posts: 531
Location: La Vernia, TX.
That's what I was thinking, too. Levi is a good size for a dog, but Chula is a more ideal size for a Lacy. I wouldn't have bred them if I didn't want some pups to keep for myself. I don't see much of a point in breeding your dogs if you don't need more from lines you like.

_________________
"One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
-- Shakespeare

My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11972487@N04/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:04 pm
Posts: 1677
Location: Burnet County
Quote:
I wouldn't have bred them if I didn't want some pups to keep for myself. I don't see much of a point in breeding your dogs if you don't need more from lines you like.

Rachael > Amen! :D

Julie > none of the Heidi X Brutus pups that survived had dark eyes. The 2 she squished I have no clue about.. :-??

~Mis

_________________
M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: eyes
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 71
Location: Crawfordville, FL
And Larry and Monster make an interesting comparison since they're both out of Bull but one is a gray bb/dd and the other is a blue B_/dd. They could both be ir^m/ir^y, but Larry has pale eyes since he is gray and Monster has yellow eyes because he is blue.

Image

Image

Julie,
What is the difference between the gray and blue? Is the gray more silvery? Love Larry's pale eyes but that's just my personal preferencce of lighter eyes.

Image
Here's a good shot of Amos's eyes.
and another better one
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Dr. Dog » Breeding & Genetics


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron