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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Location: Arizona
dew claws help to hold game, food and climb, On lions they call them kill claws. My dogs have them on the front paws and thats fine with me. some people like them removed because they say they get cought on stuff and ripped off, never had this happen on any dog ive ever owned? If you want to remove them its simple, when the pups are two or three days old, take two pair of hemostats. lock one on the upper side of the claw next to the skin and clamp the other on the claw and pull it out.

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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Location: Burnet County
Like I said..I dont care if they have dews..
I had been told some time back that dew claws are what happen when you line breed or in breed..and that Lacys were not supposed to have them...now I knew THEN that that was bs as well as I know it now..so the post about the dews was just me being me ;) :ymdevil:

Pups are getting fat fat fat!! already :))

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:11 pm 
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Location: Dead center of, NV
Our pups have always been born with dewclaws no matter what kinda cross it was. But sometimes people get pups that have dews on the hind legs which is very odd. We've always been told it was a trace back to the first dog or something like that. We've also been told that and noticed that the dogs that have back dewclaws seem to be a bit smarter and have more natural hunting abillitys than the average dogs. :-??

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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Location: Burnet County
There are tons of theories on dew claws..my dogs have fronts and their hind dews were clipped as pups except for Abby..she didn't have any. Anyway I`ve heard tons of theories, and some even make sense EXCEPT the one about dew claws being a genetic flaw caused by line or in breeding.


One of the little blue males has a white spot on his nose :(
Now typically much to the dislike of many, we would have culled this pup in the true since of the word. BUT because this breeding was based on working ability and to see if we could capitalize on Trapper's extraordinary skills , the pup will be trained and neutered.

I`m trying to figure out where the white came from, as we studied the lines and shadows for about as far as you can. But I also know it happens..to every breeder at some point.
There is no such thing as a perfect litter.
If they all come out perfect looking, then only a couple actually have the drive you were looking for. If they all come out with the drive then somewhere the conformation is off..

The key is for breeders to be honest about it, not hide it. Or worse..play it up as normal but rare and mark the price up. The only way we can grow as breeders and improve on the breed as a whole is through honest communication .

Was this a direct result of a line breeding? That will be the question most asked and gossiped about amongst the gossip mongers.
The answer is simple...somewhere in the DNA there is a genetic marker for white on the face...how did it get there? Who knows. We just know we don't want it so we don't breed those, thus trying to breed it out of the breed.
There have been MANY MANY MANY Lacy dog pups with white on their little noses, blazes up their faces, or spots on their little heads..and most of them came from out cross breeding (so called "unrelated dogs").
That means the answer is NO , it is not a direct result of line breeding..it is just a result of breeding a breed of dogs that still need lots of work.

That is my latest update :p I can't wait for their eyes to open !!!!!!!

~Mis

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:30 am
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Location: Chandler Ok
Mis, Does the pup with a pink nose have white running up his neck and under his chin and a white tipped tail and four white stockings. This was common in any white faced lacys I had. Darren


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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:53 pm 
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The puppies are so cute. It almost makes me want to breed again, but Lita only turned a year at the end of February so to date that makes her almost 20 months old. She just barely had her second heat, I don't think a dog this young has really had a chance to prove themselves yet. Maybe by her 3rd heat things will be a little different. She has shown some great progress with her abilities, but I don't feel dogs should be breed before they are 2. Maybe I am wrong, but there is still alot of maturing to be done. Then there is the issue of trying to find a male that is not too closely related.

Mis you are a 100% correct about the white, it is somewhere and when it shows up that cross needs not to be made again, so we can prevent it. You are doing the best thing by having that pup fixed so it can not pass on that gene. Addy's last litter through a lot of white and I was happy to hear most all of them were fixed, too bad they had been breed before I had learned so much about the white. I would of required all the puppies go as not breed quality. So line bred, cross bred, in bred, or even 3 generations back the white can show up if the trait is there; it is how the breeder chooses handle it that makes a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:21 pm 
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Mis, how big is the white spot? When I was researching the spotting gene, I found an interesting exception on the classification of colors with the PKC. We've discussed midline fusion markings before, which explains why genetically solid dogs can have small white markings on the tip of their tail, toes and chest, essentially the parts furthest away from the midline that may not get pigment during develop. According to the PKC, they have found genetically solid colored dogs dogs with an unexplained small white spot elsewhere as well. Their conclusion is that if a pup is laying a certain way in the womb, the same type of thing can happen as midline fusion, but the pigment may not make it due to contact with another pup or the uterus.

I'm not sure whether or not I buy it. I think it could be a possibility, especially in litters and lines that have minimal white. I think a more likely explanation is that we really have a very arbitrary standard for white markings in our breed. Genetically, small white markings and not the same as large white markings. And separating white markings on the face and chest and feet from a white tip on the tail or nose isn't done in any other breed. That is because, as Darren pointed out, white markings on all extremities are typically connected. But there appears to be an additional genetic marker that influences white on the face. So yeah, even with very careful breeding, what has been deemed correct Lacy markings are somewhat random. If it was a big white blaze, excessive white all over or on more than one puppy, I'd be worried. One pup with a small white dot, I'd be disappointed but also realize the odds involved.

Regardless, congrats on the next generation of Bayed Blue rock stars!

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:03 pm 
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Location: Burnet County
Darren his tail is not tipped, but all four paws are tipped, neck & chin and then the white spot right above his nose. His nose is still pink as a new born domestic piggy ! It is odd to say the least.

Julie all the other blues have minimal and I do mean minimal white on their chests, amd then one female has two white tipped toes.
The little cream male has a pink pink pink nose, no white markings other than a light line on his head that had been a couple of white hairs that are now darkening. Creams are always interesting to watch because they change color daily and not always evenly. When he was born he was dang near snow white, by morning he was creamier. Waiting to see what happens with him.

I want to down the road make this cross again for a study purpose. We will retain the whole litter again and assume full responsibility as always for what we produce.
Our sharing this story is for educational purposes and to open discussions about the parts of breeding that get swept under the rug often times. We naturally were disappointed with the white BUT not distraught as we bred this litter for our own personal hunting purposes. Plus we are well aware all kinds of weird stuff can happen when breeding dogs....the only time it got done perfectly right is when God created the first dogs.

Tomorrow I`ll get some pics of the pups face and start a new thread about the subject..I really encourage all of you to stay active in this discussion both from a genetics stand point as well as your personal opinions. I have really thick skin so don't tip toe. I`d love this to be an educational experience for all of us breeders as well as potential breeders. Anything that can improve on the breed over all is a good thing.
I see this as an open study..not just my personal study ;)

~Mis

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:25 am 
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Location: Bel Aire, KS
Interesting but what if the whole litter proves to be extremely hard working dogs. What then? Keep in mind, I'm from the camp of "Prove the dog worthy before breeding" and color really (just in my humble opinion) shouldn't factor in because basically deleting that hard working gene from the gene pool for a white spot on the nose. Kinda sounds silly BUT I can understand the breed standards. The old-timers probably didn't care about color just working ability. If it couldn't work, it wasn't bred from. Neutering/spaying does remove the dog from the gene pool but if the dog proves worthy, the breeder may kick themselves in the butt for doing it. They will get a working dog from it but not much else. Narrows down the gene pool in some ways when the lacy breed needs to keep a bigger gene pool. I'm wondering how many dogs do you need to prevent inbreeding to some extent? I am no expert on genetics....I just want to keep this a friendly discussion :D


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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:34 pm 
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Location: Burnet County
ALL dogs are related...once you wrap your head around that then the whole in breeding, line breeding ect..well it all seems to be nothing more than labels that Kennel clubs have given to breeding practices. .

As far as the color..Ted you are not going to get any argument out of me..I KNOW the white on this pups nose will bare no effect what so ever on how he does or does not hunt. That is why he was not culled.
However as a responsible breeder I have an obligation to up hold the standards set forth for the breed.

Sometimes it is a catch 22...

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post subject: Re: An Adventure
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Location: Burnet County
Puppies are getting bigger!!! I lost one little male..actually he was the big perfectly marked blue male..Mama accidentally squished him.. :(

Fly Boy's spot is still fading ..still watching it..

I`ll try to get some pics up soon :D

~Mis

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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