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 Post subject: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:21 pm 
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So, Chula had her litter a few days ago and I was confused by the outcome. It may just be because I'm not too experienced in breeding Lacys, but this litter really defied my expectations of odd...

First off, has anyone ever had a pup that came out with real dark skin but red fur? He looks like he may turn out with a saddlebacked or like a BMC coloration -- my dad has this "reverse tri" theory. :)) Regardless of what we think, have any of yall seen a pup come out like this before?

Image

Secondly, does anyone have any record of alot of white occuring in Grahm-bred dogs? A few of these pups have white specks on their faces and we're trying to pinpoint where that may have come in...

And, I'm sure this is heard alot, but I've never seen pups this light in my Lacy litters... Will those three cream pups darken up? All the reds that I've seen out of past litters came out dark like the one in the right corner.

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:08 pm 
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Those pics do not show what you describe very well. Can you get some individual head-on pictures of the pups?

I can tell that there are two dang good looking creams and a blue. The other two, I can only assume the ones you refer to, look like a red and MAYBE a brown dilute (sliver)????

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:34 pm 
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Well, my photos came out terrible. I get can't new pictures till next Friday, since I'm not at my dad's house now. But, here are some more I had of that weird puppy. This is the one that I want to know about.

Image
Image

So, those two in the upper right area will stay cream? I'd be saying that those blues were good looking, but one of them has a white flare on her nose. Here's two of those with white on their faces.

Image
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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:54 pm 
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Congrats to Chula on a healthy first litter!

The ones that look white now will darken to creams. A true cream, genetically chch/ee, will start out nearly white and darken slightly, and their noses will turns to black/blue. So no worries there, they look perfect ;)

As for the white spots, Savoy's friend just picked up a "pet quality" puppy from Tom Graham a couple days ago with a white blaze on the face. I didn't know he had white in his lines, but I guess it is starting to pop up.

And is the red pup with blue skin the first picture? Yes, red pups can have darker skin, but I've seen a lot more red pups with blue shading. I think that's what is going on there, but I can't tell for sure. Sometimes it fades, sometimes it doesn't.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:47 am 
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I have never even seen a cream dog in person. That's neat. :)

I can only assume that it's Graham's lines that is pushing up the white because both Levi and Chula have a Graham dog or two in the pedigree. Though, I don't know if there are other lines in there that have been found to produce white-faced pups? Here's both of their LGDR pedigrees: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/ ... eviPed.jpg, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/ ... Ped001.jpg.

It's so hard to describe what that puppy looks like... In person, he actually looks like a gray-brown color with a black tail and face. Every picture comes out with a different light on him, so it's hard to show yall what I mean. I guess I will see what he turns out like in a couple of weeks.

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Dogs with white on their face aren't allowed to breed right????? Thats just what i heard, i don't know for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:42 pm 
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Correct. Unfortunately, it is a genetic trait so their shadows (brothers and sisters) should not be bred either. If you notice over the years there have been more and more pups with white faces even though substandard dogs are not (normally) being bred. 5 years ago, there were none...... Now they are all over, most of them can be traced back to one stud and darn near ALL of them can be traced back to that studs ancestors or shadows.

As it stands now, our only limiting factor for registration is the physical expression of white on their faces. Those can not be registered because white markings on the face are listed as a disqualifying fault in our standards.

Steve

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Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:51 pm 
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So what is the answer here? With such a limited gene pool and other competing registeries who may or may not comply with nlda standards, how can this be fixed????

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:38 pm 
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This has been pondered for hours and there is not a perfect answer......

Thus far we lean towards, and our actions support, breeder discretion within physical standard. Obviously, dogs with disqualifying faults will not be registered but above that its the breeders job to decide if they do or do not want to register pups with lesser faults.....We believe that in time, the issue will wash out of our stock and registry, not because it was ignored but because the breeders themselves are dedicated to benefiting the breed.

Obviously, the fastest way to eliminate the issue would be to cut it off at the root. However, as you mention, we are working with a limited gene pool....... Even though we are adding to it through our research and recruitment of ranchers, cattle men and breeders who have never been affiliated with any breed association. As it is, we already have enough diversification to overcome the matador breeding which is evident in many pedigrees.

Regarding other registries or associations and their standard, we are not going to concern ourselves with that which does not concern us. Eventually we will be the OMCBA or Deutsch Draather of the Lacy Dog breed (assuming that we achieve our goals), and the others will not effect us.

Steve

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Pigs evolved with ears so that my dogs would have a handle.

Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

16, intelligent and articulate, I'm a fan!


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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:17 pm 
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I think your could be correct, that in time things may wash themselves out. Where the issue may be abit more difficult is when folks double register their animals and have different ways to go. They may or may not breed and register a certain animal with the nlda for one reason or another and will register it through another registery. I think to assume folks will not breed a certain animal after spending a small fortune on it because of white here or there for example, is niave on our parts.

These ranchers, cattlemen etc., that have not registered their animals with anyone, how will it be known if these animals are pure? Is there going to be dna testing, or will it be an opinion as to whether their pure or not? What critaria do they have to pass inorder to become part of the nlda?

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:04 pm 
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I will be placing a spay-and-neuter contract on this whole litter, I think. I mainly wanted to get more dogs to work like mine do, so I'm not going to be too upset about their looks. I'll be real mad if none of them show any interest in hogs, though...

By the way, does anyone have a good spay-and-neuter contract that I could look at? I want to get an idea of what I should put on my own.

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:18 pm 
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If other registries want to register subpar Lacys, that is their business. People are free to register their Lacys with whomever they want. However, if NLDA breeders decide to breed those subpar dogs who don't pass inspection and sell them using the NLDA name, they will be violating our Code of Ethics and no longer be approved by our association.

You said, "I think to assume folks will not breed a certain animal after spending a small fortune on it because of white here or there for example, is niave on our parts." This is exactly the type of breeder we don't want. I don't care if you spend $20, $200 or $2,000 on a dog, you don't have a right to breed it based on the price tag. If it doesn't meet standard, it won't be registered by the NLDR or ARF and you won't be an approved breeder with the NLDA. We can't stop people from being unethical and greedy, but we can keep our own house in order.

A dog needs to look like a Lacy, act like a Lacy and have a minimum three generation (five preferred) Lacy pedigree to be registered with the NLDR or ARF. How do you know the dogs you have now are purebred? Do you consider dogs with LGDR papers purebred? Because that registry didn't even exist until the late 80s and it still is not a closed registry. Currently there are no closed Lacy registries at all. And trust me, I've seen a lot of "Lacys" with papers that are definitely not pure. I put a lot more trust in someone who's had the same line of dogs working their cattle for the past 30 or 40 years than someone that just met, and then bred, their first lacy a few years ago.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:26 pm 
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And Rachel, I trust that you'll do the right thing with your puppies, and as the breeder it is your decision. I also think you have exactly the right attitude when it comes to working over looks. As long as they have functional conformation, a white speck is not going to hinder their working ability. If you decide to breed again, you'll have plenty of time to study the color genetics of this litter before that.

I do have some good spay-neuter contracts, but I'm not sure where I put them. I'll post some stuff on here for everyone to use once I track them down.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:28 pm 
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Julie,


I'm just asking questions here. In one sentence you said they need to look like a lacy, ect. and have a 3 generation pedigree and preferrably a 5 generation pedigree. Then as I read your response is that you trust ranchers who havent been registering their dogs as opposed to folks who have. Is that (trust)
going to be the benchmark when bringing unregistered dogs to the nlda?

As far as my dogs go, I have a 5 generation pedigree on them. I would not even begin to know how to question the validity of the pedigree. I would assume it was researched well by Ms Betty and Jimmy Brooks (the male is his).

I'm not trying to rock any boat here, when Rachel asked her questions and Steve responded thats what popped into my head, so I asked.

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 Post subject: Re: What the heck?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:41 pm 
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I think the confusion is the definition of "pedigree". Pedigree is a record of ancestry. She never said that it required a 3 to 5 generation pedigree printed out by a registry...... These old timers who have never registered a dog still have their pedigree. Incidentally, I have come to trust these guys and their hand written or memorized pedigrees far more so than a piece of paper produced by someone with financial agenda.

Steve

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Pigs evolved with ears so that my dogs would have a handle.

Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

16, intelligent and articulate, I'm a fan!


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