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 Post subject: the spot..
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:44 pm 
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As promised I took a few pictures today of the nose spot.
First let me say..he wiggles A LOT and it was just me here soooooooooooooo I think I got one good shot of his nose
Up until today he had a pink nose..its darkening now.. 8-| so I'm going through the early pics I took (day after birth) to see if his little muzzle pops up in them.
Like I said I want this to be an OPEN and HONEST discussion. Be it genetically based comments or personal opinions, experiences , whatever..GO For It. It's not a debate...it is a study and learning opportunity.
.Oh and Darren the white does go further up his front paws than I thought, not quiet socks but close.

Here is the picture I managed to get earlier today > note the ant bites.. X( thus being why they are now all in my utility room
Image

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:14 pm 
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It sure would be great to get a real understanding of all the factors that can create the white. If there is truth to the thoughts it may be caused by pressure against an area of skin during development, it would be a shame to kick a dog out of the gene pool just because he decided not to wait until after he was born to stick his nose up his sister's butt. :ymdevil:

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:35 pm 
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:)) :)) :)) I have to agree Jim..

The funny thing is I have noticed this little guy always sleeps with his nose pressed hard against his sisters shoulder. NOW that is not to say that I believe this is the cause, but after reading Julies post and the latest out on pigmentation during gestation and the way the pups lay in the womb is also how they usually lay once born and sleeping(the first few days) Which these little one all lay side by side in the order in which they where born. :-?
I had to entertain the notion at least for a second..and had the same thought as you :))

Anyway, this fellow (Fly Boy) will get to grow up and have a long happy life provided he works.

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Jim :))

Mis, this is from JP Yousha, the Great Dane gene czar. So that is where the reference to the solid colors come from. But this is applicable to all breeds and based off the most recent studies out in 2007 and early 2009 on white spotting genetics:

"S = allows for self-colored dog with no more than 10% body white confined to the toes and chest when full extension of white. Homozygous <SS> self-colored dogs are our normal fawn, brindle, blue & black dogs. If there is any white on them, that white will be limited to very small markings on the chest and toes. (There will NOT be extensive white in the throat and belly area, or on the head and actual feet.) SS dogs can range from solid with no white to these small white markings **SO THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE** in their spotting inheritance. It is considered a random event, NOT controlled by genes, as to how much white is left on a solid dog. It's worth noting that pigment continues to fill in (spread) in puppies until at least 3 month, so the amount of white seen at birth is likely to decrease."

I'm really surprised about that last little moment on white markings not setting until 3 months. That is the first time I've heard it, but once I did some searches specifically for that it appears to be scientifically solid. It would explain why some of the very small mismarks disappear from some puppies and it would also explain why it is not a genetic issue.

Beyond that, it highlights something I've always sort of had trouble explaining. Many Lacys with white markings don't genetically have white markings. They are SS. These are the dogs like Sadie and Abby with very minimal white, just toes and a small chest patch. So yes, they have white, even though they don't have white genes. But I'd bet a dog like Trapper, with the larger white chest, does carry a white gene. It isn't straight s^i, the Irish spotting is modified, and the S locus displays partial dominance, but it is there. Unlike S which only displays white on the points furthest from the midline, s^i usually effects the face in addition to the chest and legs in other breeds, so correct Lacy markings involving s^i require passing on modifiers that may not exist with S. Combine all that and you can see why there is a substantial window for error.

But... I also found this comment from a Corgi guy really interesting as a good reminder of what to keep in mind with the white spotting gene:

"In terms of how Cardigan mismarks work, we do now have a good idea how piebald Cardigans end up in litters (both parents have a copy of MITF with some number of mutations). We don’t know how the head mismarks work. Breeding-based evidence is not a bad thing, but (as we find with a whole bunch of Little’s stuff) it often bows in the end to different data once the genetic basis is discovered. We also have to learn which color characteristics are not genetic – we know that some are developmental and are not the result of genes, at least in cats (cloned cats can be different colors and have different eye colors from the original cat). White chest spots in solid breeds are probably the result of this kind of random developmental event."

Given the most recent research, it looks like there are going to be white markings that are environmental. And of all the color genetics involved in canines, white spotting is the most complex and difficult to define genetically. A lot of progress has been made, but for now there is still a little bit of mystery when it comes to markings.

Of course if half the litter had those white noses, or if multiple litters had the white noses, we'd be having another conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:14 pm 
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Mis, my litter had one blue female with white on her nose. It used to look big like that pup's mark does, but now it's just over the top of her nose and her nose leather is black. I think one of the cream pups has a big flare on her nose, too. Hers reaches almost all the way up her muzzle. We also had a red male that had a white spot on his forehead. I can't tell what the other two creams look like because they are so light, but I believe I can faintly see white on their foreheads. The two runts, the blue male and the weird brown one, do not have any white on their faces at all -- in fact, the brown pup has very minimal white on his chest. The wide way that littermates can differ is so strange!

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:03 pm 
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I cant speak much for lacys but for heelers I could never tell you what they would have turned out like. It seems to me that pups go through such a color change that we cant tell much about what they will look like till their older. I couldnt tell I had two tri pups till they aged a little. I will show you what my hound toby looked like when he was a pup and what the looks like now. It is fun to watch them grow and watch the changes....those ant bites must have been hell on them pups~


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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:04 pm 
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Julie that is really interesting..and has a lot zipping around my brain :))
It's fascinating when you look at just the genetics. When you factor in the environmental factors the mystery deepens.

Rach I`ve seen cases like yours where the white mark above the nose completely disappears. SO I`m waiting to see what becomes of this little fellows coloration down the line. As Julie pointed out about the pigmentation process and duration of 3 months, I know from experience with creams (true creams) that is very true. They are an adventure to watch change.

So there is a difference between a spot and a blaze, and a genetic white marking vs. a random event not controlled by genes. What do we think this might be on Fly Boy? As that could make a difference in whether or not he gets to keep his testies.. :-?

Fly Boy will be trained and raised just like the other Lacy pups, and my hope is that he works hard! As a breeder I`m bound to standards for what qualifies as breeding quality. I do not think that mis- markings on a Lacy make it less of a Lacy, it disqualifies him from breeding but not from being a full blooded working Lacy Dog.


Chad~> great looking Hound!!

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Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:17 pm 
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with angie coming in and going out of heat and now my gyp hound is in, all these male dogs around here are in jeopardy of loosing their um "testies"....ugh! X( X( :)) :))

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:23 am 
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MisB wrote:
Rach I`ve seen cases like yours where the white mark above the nose completely disappears. SO I`m waiting to see what becomes of this little fellows coloration down the line. As Julie pointed out about the pigmentation process and duration of 3 months, I know from experience with creams (true creams) that is very true. They are an adventure to watch change.


I've seen it happen both ways. I've seen a cream pup that was born solid and had a white blaze show up at ~5-6 weeks. I think it may have always been there but the rest of his coat darkened and the blaze didn't. I've also seen a red pup that was born with a little white on its face, and the white completely disappeared by about 5 weeks.
Do y'all think dogs with "disappearing" white should be bred?

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:45 am 
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AmberLowMiddleton wrote:
I've seen it happen both ways. I've seen a cream pup that was born solid and had a white blaze show up at ~5-6 weeks. I think it may have always been there but the rest of his coat darkened and the blaze didn't. I've also seen a red pup that was born with a little white on its face, and the white completely disappeared by about 5 weeks.
Do y'all think dogs with "disappearing" white should be bred?


In the case of genetically cream dogs, they get darker with age. In the case of genetically red dogs, they get lighter with age. Sometimes that transition is easily recognized and sometimes it is minimal. In either case however, disbursement of pigmentation is never complete until several weeks or even a couple of months after birth.

As such, my guess would be that the cream you described always had the white blaze which remained indistinguishable until its pigmentation darkened. The indication in this case is that the white was likely genetic and could be marked on a DNA profile. Ergo, I would have it fixed and search hard for the cause.

In the case of the red dog, it sounds like the white was the result of mid-line fusion and the incomplete distribution of pigment prior to birth. In that case, I would not hesitate to breed the dog, assuming solid work ethic. But, I would grade its progeny strictly and if they showed genetic predisposition for inappropriate markings, I would fix the whole litter and the dog assumed to have passed on said trait.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:53 am 
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If that white disappears completely, it is obviously environmental white. For some reason, the pigment had not yet reached that area, but genetically it was supposed to. If there is still a white marking left and it just gets smaller, it could either be environmental or genetic.

And yes, since the creams will darken significantly as they age, you're probably looking at a several months before you know what their markings look like. I can imagine a scenario in which a cream could have a marking that comes and then goes away - being born essentially white so you can't see a mark, darkening enough to see the mark, then the pigment continuing to develop and the mark filling in.

Also, I wanted to point out that all of this discussion on environmental factors in white markings ONLY applies to white markings. Mismarkings like melanistic masks and saddlebacks are 100% genetic. That is because white is not a color, it is the absence of pigment. And the presence or lack or pigment can be effected by external events, like hair coming back white on a scar. But the color of the pigment itself is genetically determined.

Might be obvious, but I can already imagine someone claiming their Lacys have saddlebacks because of the way they were lying in the womb 8-|

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:02 am 
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Incidentally, in the case of the pup pictured above, I am interested to see the result for several reasons.

1) I have noticed that pups with genetically impressed expression of improper white markings tend to be even in distribution across the mid-line (one side is the mirror of the other).

2) Genetically impressed expression of improper white markings tend to grow with the dog, retaining its original shape and distribution relative to size throughout growth.

3) The pups were born premature which may have exacerbated the uneven color distribution during mid-line fusion.

4) This line has never produced an inappropriate white mark.

5) The white mark shown is neither even in distribution across mid-line nor do we know if it will grow, shrink, or retain its current size as the pup grows.

6) While we have never seen genetically impressed white markings expressed by this line, line breeding could certainly produce some expression of undesired traits along with the desired. It will be interesting to see if there is something hidden deep in the line which has never expressed previously.

7) I sure am glad that we are actually enforcing the breed standard through inspection at maturity because if one with genetically impressed and inappropriate white markings were to make it that far, it will be removed from the gene pool through the inspection process.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:04 am 
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Julie N wrote:
Might be obvious, but I can already imagine someone claiming their Lacys have saddlebacks because of the way they were lying in the womb 8-|


Wouldn't that be par for the course? #-o

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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:28 pm 
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SteveW wrote:
3) The pups were born premature which may have exacerbated the uneven color distribution during mid-line fusion.


Very good point. I hadn't even thought of that and it makes perfect sense as far as pigment development. I wonder how that ends up playing out though, if it would eventually catch up or if it would cause a permanent difference.

SteveW wrote:
6) While we have never seen genetically impressed white markings expressed by this line, line breeding could certainly produce some expression of undesired traits along with the desired. It will be interesting to see if there is something hidden deep in the line which has never expressed previously.


I'm pretty sure Trapper is not SS. He doesn't have big white socks but he does have a large chest patch. That is sort of what I was trying to get at with the modifiers and expression of s^i. According to the patterns in other breeds, s^i alone creates the possibility of white on the face. Lacys should carry a modifier, but its possible that the modifier could get neglected if there is a lot of S in the mix, creating a litter in which the SS and Ss^i pups are marked perfectly, even minimally, but an s^is^i could be mismarked. Sort of like why breeding so much blue to blue has opened up the door for funky color reds, because even if a blue carried melanistic markings you wouldn't see it until a red pup showed up.

All of that is, of course, a theory. This could be environmental. It just seems a little too big for that, but that's hard to tell when he's so small himself.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: the spot..
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Steve I think you are spot on there (no pun intended :)) )


That is the thing key thing about breeding, you have to assume full responsibility of your litters and realize that your litters are part of a larger picture..so there is a LOT of responsibility there. That is why breeding should NEVER be about profit.

Man y'all posted a bunch more while I was typing this...I`ll never catch up :))

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Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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