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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:41 am 
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I was just curious what yalls thoughts on this subject were. My current plans are to put a contract on the pups that I sell which requires them to be fixed before six months of age. As I see it, a registered dog that has visible faults nonconforming to the breed standard should not be allowed to produce more registered dogs which will not meet the standard. Also, though, I think if you have a real bang-up dog and you want some puppies from him, it doesn't really matter what he looks like or if you are going to cross him or whatever. Some of my best dogs have been crosses and my best Lacys white-faced. I'm not a breeder and I definitely won't be breeding litters routinely, I bred because I needed workable pups. If I decide to breed again, I will be more carefully looking in to the lineage to prevent visible faults... So, is it better to sell puppies on a spay/neuter contract at a young age or just not give the buyer papers on white-faced pups? Or, since the NLDR requires later inspection, sell them with papers and make sure the buyer understands that they will not be able to produce registrable pups unless they pass inspection? I want to do what is best for the pups. I want them in good working homes. Some hunters have been deterred from buying them because of the spay/neuter that I want to place on them. By requiring them to be fixed based on a decision made at eight weeks, do I give enough time for the white to go away? Would it be best to modify my spay/neuter contract to require inspection at a certain age instead of making a decision on them while they are still young? Or is my current plan of the six-month spay/neuter contract really the best way to go? I want to know how other people do this. I don't want to start a debate or anything -- I just need some input from experienced Lacy breeders!

Thanks,
-- Rachael C

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:58 am 
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Just to give you input from an owner of an intact dog that will not be bred, you might want to consider a different spin, and prohibit breeding rather than requiring spay or neuter at such a young age. Having read about the subject, I'm in the camp that it hasn't been proven one way or the other whether castrating a male will affect his working abilities, so I haven't had it done to Cannon. I've actually considered getting him a vasectomy instead, even though that seems like a waste of money, since he won't be around fertile females.

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:45 am 
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That does sound like a good idea, but it would be pretty hard to enforce. When you have a whole bunch of dogs, accidents happen and sometimes you can't tell who the sire is. And if the dog is rehomed, I have no idea how the new owner will uphold any previous agreements. I don't think that fixing a dog interferes with its drive, but I have seen it affect growth. We fix a lot of dogs. I prefer it to be done around six months because it allows enough hormone for the dog to grow correctly, I think. The only difference I see between a fixed dog and an intact dog is that they don't mark everything within a five mile radius and don't kill each other when a female comes in to heat. I think some people see it as an ego thing. As for females, I try to get all the ones that I won't want to breed fixed because I hate dealing with dogs in heat.

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:22 pm 
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OK Rach I`m probably going to rock the boat on this one..

If you are placing a pup with someone who will potentially be breeding LACY DOGS and registering them then obviously a spay/neuter contract on a dog not meeting standards makes sense.
HOWEVER if you are placing the pup with a hunter, I wouldn't require one. Why? Because the only reason a real hunter would breed that dog is if it is working its ass off, and they aren't doing it because of its a Lacy but rather because it's a hog dog ...and probably wouldn't breed it to another Lacy.
They would breed it to another jam up hog dog.

Our standards and requirements take those pups out of the Lacy breeding program/ gene pool...but nothing requires they be removed from the hog dog gene pool.

NOW I know some of y'all are in shock that I said that :-o but the fact of the matter is it would be a travesty to eliminate a good working gene simple because the coat color is wrong. Those pups do not meet breed standards and therefore should not and can not be used for breeding registered Lacy Dogs, and that I understand and agree with completely. But like I said..if the person interested is a die hard hunter, and the dog has die hard prey...I can't blame the hunter one bit for wanting to keep him/her intact.

NOW let me stress this..if its a home that may be leaning towards breeding Lacys.. contract them or no sale. You know as well as I do if they are wanting to breed and are bulking at the contract even though the pup does not meet standards then they are obviously not what the Lacy breed needs for it's betterment in the breeding department.

My two cents

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:26 pm 
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By the way...that was me in that post Rach..still logged in as Steve :)) but he is sitting right here and agrees... :p

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Thanks for the input, both of yall. :)

That is kind of what I was thinking. The people that I have spoken to are real hunters and want a pup because they want a good Lacy. If I were selling to home where the pups would not be hunted, I would require a spay/neuter no matter what, because I know that if the dog were to be bred it would not be based on working ability. If the NLDR's inspection removes the pup from the Lacy gene pool, then that is perfect. But, I would hate to remove them from the already slim hog dog population just because of the white... It's impossible to tell how a pup will work at this age. But, I know I would regret fixing a dog at six months if he went on to be my best strike dog. I am glad to have them registered with the NLDR because of its inspection requirement. In my opinion, you can breed all the white you want into your Lacys and crosses as long as they are not marketed as full or breed standard dogs.

The only place that I have advertised the litter is ETHD and I think the majority of people on that site are looking for working dogs, not breeding dogs. I would rather them go to hunters without spay/neuter than them go to pet homes with spay/neuter and come right back to me in three months because they destroyed the house!

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Rachael Connally wrote:
I would rather them go to hunters without spay/neuter than them go to pet homes with spay/neuter and come right back to me in three months because they destroyed the house!


I absolutely agree with this 100%. If the option is selling to a working home or not, the priority is making sure they are placed in the right environment. And yes, when it comes to the NLDR and ARF, dogs must past standard at 18 months to produce registered dogs. So even if they aren't spayed or neutered, they can't produce papered pups unless it is confirmed that they are standard dogs as adults. Regardless of an individual breeders decisions, the registries have a protective measures in place.

Of course if puppy A and puppy B grow up to meet standard and their litter mate puppy C does not, puppy A and B can still be bred even though they could be carrying but not expressing puppy C's fault. In an ideal world, that wouldn't happen, but I'm also not sure we have a large enough gene pool of true working dogs to prevent it at this point. And breeding in pet dogs just because they came from perfect looking litters would ruin the breed faster than anything else. So eventually, hopefully, if everyone does their research, the mismarkings and size issues and whatnot should decrease through limited registration and proper selection of breeding stock.

However, I don't agree with Mis/Steve that "the only reason a real hunter would breed that dog is if it is working its ass off, and they aren't doing it because of its a Lacy but rather because it's a hog dog." There are scores of hog doggers who breed to make money. The sheer number of litters for sale on hunting boards should prove its far more likely people will breed mediocre or unproven than great ones, and the only reason I can think of for that is to turn a profit. And I know of more than one hunter who specifically breed Lacys to make more money. Even without papers, the Lacys go for more money than the mutts or even other unpapered purebreds due to the novelty factor. I've heard of many people who expect their hog dogs to earn their keep, and if they don't do it in the woods then they'll give it a shot in the whelping box (though I wouldn't really call them hog dogs at that point). It's an attitude that only serves to decrease the credibility of our breed in working circles because people get stuck with duds.

Yes, most hog doggers will balk at the spay/neuter contract because they'd be eternally pissed if they got a great dog they couldn't reproduce. Which really seems stupid to me, a great dog is a gift in and off itself, offspring is merely a bonus and likely won't be a reproduction of the parents anyway unless you have a serious line breeding program. Still, we need to recognize that many see dollar signs attached to those contracts as well.

I'm not sure how you prevent all that without spaying or neutering. You can put a contract on the breeding rights, but that becomes more complex since it isn't as black and white as a spay/neuter. What's one person's best dog could be your cast off, so how would you judge two years down the line if you think your puppy should be bred? I'd almost say it has more to do with the people than the dog, it is a lack of human's ethics that have left us with too many dogs and watered down breeds and the slew of other issues resulting from backyard breeding and puppy mills. How you deal with it, I really don't know, which is why I never want to breed!

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- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:58 pm 
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We can't save all of humanity..can't make the world and everyone in it moral..what I can do and what I am sure Rach will do is place those pups in TRUE hog dog homes..that is the best we can do.

Yes there are hog doggers that breed for profit, but they get outed pretty quick by the real hunters & breeders...

Plus it's like you said, and Steve said and well we have all said at some point, we have a safe guard in place with the inspection at 18 months specifically because we cant control everything.

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Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:36 pm 
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I agree with Julie. Without knowing the person it is only a geuss to what they want to do with a dog. Sell the pups but dont give them any papers with them. papers wont matter much anyways. Type up the dogs blood lines and leave it at that. Too many people want to fund hunting gear with puppy litters. Be it "real" or "fake" hunters. Anyone can talk the talk, without know them you never know. Pass no papers to them and problem solved. How many pups did you end up keeping?


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:47 pm 
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msavoy wrote:
Sell the pups but dont give them any papers with them. papers wont matter much anyways. Type up the dogs blood lines and leave it at that. Too many people want to fund hunting gear with puppy litters. Be it "real" or "fake" hunters. Anyone can talk the talk, without know them you never know. Pass no papers to them and problem solved. How many pups did you end up keeping?


Agreed, 100%

Oops, this is Steve

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:52 pm 
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msavoy wrote:
Pass no papers to them and problem solved.


Simple as that!

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Well, with the NLDR and ARF the papers just prove lineage. Even with papers, progeny can't be registered unless the parents are inspected. But you could probably save yourself some work by not providing papers. The end result of either approach should be the same, so just make the buyers aware of that.

Without spay/neuter contracts, I'm sure that someone will breed one of the mismarked pups and sell them as purebred Blue Lacys even without papers. And yes, there is a definite possibility that the standard litter mates will produce pups with white on their face. But personally, if I was a breeder, I'd be more concerned about people breeding one of the standard pups that doesn't really work just because they do have papers. That does much more damage to the breed than a white spot.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:56 am 
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Rach I know you & your Daddy and trust y'all know what you're doing and that you will do right by those pups ;) This has been an interesting thread though..


This is why it always comes back to one major point ~> KNOW YOUR BUYER <~
There just is not a way to stress that enough.

Papers are not what make a dog..we all know that. Lacys that have marks that disqualify them from being bred are still Lacy Dogs.

When you get right down to the heart of the matter, do you spay/neuter or cull a dog with out first knowing their prey drive and workability ?
In many other breeds they would be put down or contracted, but those breeds are in show rings. (Not where a Lacy belongs).

In the woods or the bay pen ,on cattle, or on a blood trail..does it really matter what the dog looks like so long as it is doing it's job? (Where a Lacy belongs) now I`m talking about color variations and stuff like that, I`m not talking about size disqualifications.(Different issue)

Conformation is important in breeding. So it makes sense that if a breeder or potential breeder is looking at a pup that is not marked correctly, you would contract them. But a good breeder is not going to want to buy an already faulted pup.
Which again leaves these options (hint * they are not all really options) > hunting home, pet home or irresponsible breeder.
If you are selling to a pet home they will sign a contract.
If selling to a potentially irresponsible breeder/owner.. a contract is not the issue, the seller is the problem.

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Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Wonder if the old-timers really gave a hoot about colors when it's obvious they preferred working ability above all else. I see that in the pictures and stuff that the old-timers lacy breeders weren't that strict about colors. Same thing is happening with catahoulas (for those who like those dogs like I do)..people buy the colorful spotted pups and the leftovers sell for cheap even though they work livestock the SAME! Old-timers said that the bobtail trait in the catahoula used to be very prevalent until recent times and now you have to basically import or really hunt down breeders who breed the bobtails if you want one that bad.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Sorry, guys! I just moved in with my dad and we don't have internet here in La Vernia... I don't have much time online on my friend's computer either.

Savoy: We are keeping the two littlest males, they're red-brown and blue. I named them Midas and Deisel. :)

If I could have asked Chula to just make me two good pups then I would have. But, now we've got seven and we've got to get them out of the yard. :)) That's the trouble with breeding and that's why we don't do it much at all.

I don't know how much good selling them with no papers will do. If they wanted, they could just have their pup inspected and registered with the NLDR or some other registry anyways...

Hopefully I will be online more in a few weeks... Internet is really expensive out here in nowhere land...

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