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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Location: menard tx.
:D :ymhug:

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 Post subject: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:41 pm 
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I'm no expert at linebreeding, but I dont think you breed back to a population, you focus on one particular excellent individual within the population, then linebreed to reproduce that dog, setting particular traits in place, with of course honest culling.

Jerryg


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:13 pm 
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jeeryg I was trying to give my opinion why I don't think it is great for the breed. again I am not a breeder and am still learning about the breed and breeding in general. Hoowever one day I hope to be able to understand this breed enough to be one of the best breeders i can be to help this breed advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Let me start off saying IMO so I dont offend anyone, I'm very new to lacy's and to the forum. I love the group and had a blast at the event........ I personally find it hard to believe that there are not enough "GOOD" lacy stud dogs to go around so that linebreeding/inbreeding is not necessary. With that being said one of the problems I see in the NLDA is that there are just not enough breeders. Surely there are some dogs from the "DARK SIDE" that grandmadog spoke of that are up to the NLDA "Standards" There are only so many NLDA breeders and it seems like it is very bais on who has a dog that is up to NLDA "standard" and worthy to breed. This is all JMO! Like hippy, I am very new to Lacy's and love mine to death, but I do think that if we are going to have a optimum lacy breed we are going to have to get more "standard" lacy's in our association to make this thing work. You can only line/inbreed so many times until you start producing dogs that show the recessive genes that show the negative aspects of the line. Breeders just need to make conscientious decisions when breeding. IMO IMO!!


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 Post subject: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:23 pm 
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My response was directed at Camo. Just discussion.

Jerryg


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Jerry I agree but in this case the population had a lot of really good dogs in it all with good traits.If they didn't Jimmy would not have owned them . Jim has his lines pretty consistant and you can see it in the majority of the dogs he has breed. Its not just looks but there ability to work and perform. I Felt like we could not go wrong but I've said that before . #-o with bad results !!

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:39 am 
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colby your right you can only line breed for so long before you start to have bad genes showing up thats why you have to put an outcross into the mix to bring new blood into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:51 am 
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There are a lot of good dogs out there. There are also a lot of issues that we have no control over. The biggest problem I ran into when I was looking at breeding was finding a dog that was not related. Once I found a dog that was related then I needed to make sure the male worked, another road blocked. So yes there are plenty of males out there but there are also plenty of road blocks out there.
You also need to take into consideration what working traits does the dog have. Does the dog really work or did the parents or grandparents work and the so called breeder is claiming it comes from working stock.
I also am not a fan of over breeding. My oldest gyp is 7 and she has been twice, my youngest gyp is 3 and only been breed once. Both dogs will work and work hard no matter what they are asked to do, are they the best at what they do no. They are good for what we need though!

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:48 am 
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First, I am no expert and I am trying to see the whole picture here. And I commend you for keeping and placing most of this litter to identify the best offspring by working ability.
I am not questioning the type of dogs Jimmy is breeding or anything of that nature and I understand that there are many dogs in the pedigree that are quality dogs, but all those traits, positive or negative are now in Patch. And he is what you are linebreeding by breeding a 1/2 Brother 1/2 sister. Your litter now carries

50% Patch
25% Bitch A
25% Bitch B

So you see, you are now starting to double up on Patch's traits. Which is what I assume you are trying to do....

Jerryg


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 Post subject: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Thanks Jerry and I think you have the over all picture . I will not confirm or deny your last statement. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Well, i have limited knowledge about breeding and zero experience but I understand the problems Betty is trying to warn us about. I also understand that Jimmy feels there arent enough stud dogs out there and he's right too. 

We have always agreed the emphases should be placed on quality not quantity because that is where breeders of the past have failed the breed. The mentality of breeding as much as you can because lacies are a rare breed has backed the dogs into a genetic corner. We've already talked about how most of our dogs are related in some way. And just recently we've seen an increase in hip and joint problems in dogs with a common sire that has hundreds of progeny running around out there. It's hard to say wether the problems are gentic, the result of a recessive gene or mutation, or just dumb luck from having produced so many offspring, but it's disturbing.

So-called matador breeding is a pretty big genetic and ethical issue with some registries. Some limit the number of dogs produced by overly popular sires. I believe the ukc dictates that in his entire lifetime, no sire should produce more than 10% of the registered population in a year. Our registration numbers are relatively small but for most breeds that means a stud should only produce 8 to 10 litters in his life.  
Jerry is right...we really need to recruit more breeders.

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:33 pm 
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O.K. For obvious resons i am trying to stay out of this discussion. But i would like to say #1 i donot advertise my dogs for stud service. I have turned more than a few people that i did not think would be good for the breed. As for puppys there are a lot of my blood lines out there but a lot of it is so waterted down you cant tell it anymore. Also i have always had a long waiting list for puppys. All of the people that bye pups from me are not breeders. They just want a good Lacy. So WHAT am i supose to do???? :-?

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:01 pm 
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I dont disagree with what is being done, I agree if the overall goal is to reproduce Patch then great, this way is the best way to do it, with culling, working the offspring, etc. I am almost positive that no one is currently linebreeding (maybe aside from a few members within the NLDA) since other organizations were against linebreeding. And since others are watering down Jimmys line by not breeding correctly (which happens alot), this would be the best way to keep Jims dogs consistant. Remember, the hardest part is being very honest to yourself and the dogs and not being afraid to cull. I am very interested to see how your dogs turn out...

I also think that dogs within NLDA standard and currenlty outside the NLDA andwilling to participate as breeders, should not be elimiated, if they are truly great Lacy dogs.

All my dogs are linebred, maybe some inbred :-o .

Jerryg


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Quote:
They just want a good Lacy. So WHAT am i supose to do????


If it was me, I would start linebreeding your best dogs and get some others to breed the right way to keep your line strong. :D If there were a few linebred lines, you would have options when outcrossing (down the line) and bringin in some hybrid vigor. JMO, but I would consult with someone who really knows...because its very easy to screw up and a line.

Jerryg


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Thanks Jerry. As far as i am concerned all Lacy breeders are welcome over here as long as the dogs meet our standerds and they are proven working dogs. WELCOME. :ymhug:

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