NLDA Forum for Working Lacy Dogs
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Stud dog management
http://www.nationallacydog.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2477
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Author:  Betty L. [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Stud dog management

I really think that Patch has enough puppies out. Breeding a stud too many times is as damaging to the breed as breeding one that doesnt quite meet the perfect standard. Just because there is a stud that is a good dog, doesnt mean that everything in that dogs genetic make up is good. Further down the line, it could destroy the breed and all of the work that has been done to make the lacy a breed of dog that looks alike and is a good working dog could be down the tubes. You are taking a risk in putting so many pups out there from Patch, regardless of how good of a dog he is. JMHO.

Betty

Author:  jim b [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new here

Well i am open to any suggestions for stud dogs that are good blooded Lacys.

Author:  hippy [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new here

betty I can see where you are going with that but even if you bred to of the best dogs in the world(even though there is no way to determine that every dog has good and bad in it jmo) your still going to end up with some pups that dont make the cut, and imo that is where people need to be very hard on culling. I'm new to lacy's but I'm the the kind of person that loves to read and tlk to old timers and from what I can see the people in the lacy world should be much like those in the catahoula world because both breeds have been taken over by puppy mills and have been bred really hard for colors becuase that is what sold. So yes breeding should be researched and planned accordingly. I can honestly say that john hit the pedigree papers before this breeding from what I can see and how he was explaining how these two dogs were related, but as I said before there needs to be "hard culling" in any breeding program. This is just my 2 cents and I am alot younger than prolly most people on here so take this for what its worth and hope I didn't offend anyone.

Author:  Betty L. [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new here

I am working very hard here not to make people mad or to start a fight, but simply trying to make a point that I feel is very important for this breed.

The NLDA started out trying to keep the breed within standards that we put in place. There was a lot of work put into making the standards and they are ok, but not the holy grail. As we grow as an association dedicated to preserving the working ability of the lacy dog, we must be concerned as to what we are doing other than just enforcing standards.

If we are saying that there are not enough good blooded lacys out there then how do we get to more good blooded lacys? What determines a 'good blooded lacy'? Is it only a dog that is blue, red, or tri with the right amount of white, a tight coat, etc, etc? Is it more important that the dog has the right amount of working ability or that it looks right? Is it more important that we put a bunch of dogs on the ground or more important that we protect the genetic integrity of the breed?

I think that it is important that we all hold ourselves to a high standard and understand that we are not breeding like they did in the old days. There is genetic and scientific proof now that over breeding ANY stud can spell disaster down the road. Would it not be horrific if at some short time in the future that Patch, or any stud, was to be afflicted with heart disease, eye disease or diabetes, - any genetic disease that shows up in a later stage in life and because so many of his progeny were around that there was no way to keep the breed healthy? It is something to think about is all that I am saying.

Betty

Author:  CAMO [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new here

Take the time and plan your litters know what you want and cull hard !! It is Possible to over breed a dog but I do not think that we are in danger of doing that . Do we need more studs in the system yes we do, but they need to be quality male dogs .If not you are doing just as much damage breeding junk . I would rather work out the problem of a great dog that was over bred than to try and fix the problem of junk dogs being breed over and over. I believe that was one of the reasons this organization was started . It is also the biggest battle I think we are facing now is fixing all the junk that was bred . There is a limited # of male dogs to choose from that are of quality . The other problem is getting folks to work there dogs . I see great looking lacy dogs all the time but they are not being worked. I am not willing to take a chance on a breeding with a dog that looks great but may have never worked a day in his life . My male Patch is a great dog and has more than proven himself, he meets the standard in every way. He is the best bay dog in my program but there are some that will not breed because of his bloodlines and it has nothing to do with if he will work or not !! He comes from completely different lines and is a jam up dog in every way. I worry more that old hard feeling and pride may cause some to over look a good dogs and could become more of a problem than over breeding one dog . I hear it all the time the question who lines is that dog out of and make there dessicion to breed based on that . Yet they have never seen the dogs work or even seen the dog in person .With that type of mind set we are in for a long haul. JMO

Author:  jim b [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new here

Thanks John. VERY well said and i agree 100% :D

Author:  grandmadawg [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new here

Is this the kind of stuff we need to be discussing on a public forum? I bet the "Dark side " reading our business is jumping up and down having a field day. expecially because some of the people we are talking about is not liked very much by the "dark side" just my opinion even tho it not ment to be a fight but Because it can be taken out of context by people wanting something to to talk about us as a whole.
Grandmadawg

Author:  Bluedog [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new here

Granny, you have a point.....

Author:  CAMO [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new here

I see your point also it is a great topic to talk about !!

Author:  hippy [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stud dog management

I agree with you john if that is not something that is watch then the same thing will happen as with the bmc. look at the ben and ladner blood lines. there was generations of em bred by the founders of those lines and they bred specificly for working ability becuase that is what those dogs did was work. Now fastforward to now and everyone and there mom is breeding yella dogs and calling em something there not just to sale em and imo its watering down blood lines with dogs that prolly won't even make the cut all becuase people are so caught up on bloodlines. If a dog is well built and proven himself in all arenas he should then I personally would use that said dog to breed. The problems start to arise when people just look at some papers and breed to a really young dog that hasn't even had the chance to show what it can do.

Author:  jerryg [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stud dog management

I know where there is a great Lacy that excels in bloodtracking. Camo, you need to get Clint to register that dog with NLDA. Bloodlines come from Marlos parents or parents in law...but he is a great dog and will meet NLDA standards. I would not have an issue breeding to this male. The trick is finding these studs as well as females that are great dogs with confirmation and drive.

There is an animal genetecist, Dr. Charles Long, that works at TA&M and has been breeding BMC for years. It may be beneficial to contact him and see if he will sit down and talk to breeders. It may give direction to the NLDA and clear up some issues with breeding as well as linebreeding....jmo

Jerryg

Author:  CAMO [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stud dog management

I think we have some great male dog in the NLDA and I got to see a few at the tracking event . I think we are headed in the right direction with the Best of the Best ! That is why it got started it just is not going to happen over night . It takes time to have a proven solid working dog. I have spent the last 2.5 yrs with Patch and Sammy working them almost every weekend hours on end, Traveling time and money spent I can not even count.I still have not breed either one of them yet . They have proven they have what it takes to be bred in my eyes. Sammy has never won or placed at a bay. That dosen't mean she is not a proven work dog . I would put her on any hog any where! She can hold her own and is very hog smart and has never gotten herself in a bad situation. I know we are getting more members out & working there dogs every time we do a event . That is what it is going to take to see some of the other good males out there and there are plenty of them . We also have lots of good dogs that continue to join. I am not against going out of my kennels for a stud as long as I can see him do what he does and he better do it well . I am picky !! Jerry from what I understand they will be moving him not sure when . Thanks for everyones imput good stuff !!

Author:  jerryg [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stud dog management

Camo,

Have a question, you mentioned that you were linebreeding, which dog are your trying to reproduce?

Jerryg

Author:  CAMO [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stud dog management

I was not looking so much to duplicate a dog in particular . There is a lot things that I like and see in some of Jimmy's dogs. Such as size,build ,speed,endless drive, athletic gritty , very smart .I also spent time talking to Jimmy about those dogs what they did how they worked what he liked about each one and things he did not like . He very few dislikes. LOL With all that info I decided to do the breeding. I wanted to carry some of this into my lines .The breeding I did just puts some of Jimmys best dogs back in the mix.I can say at this point I am very pleased. I am not sure what we ended up with it is way to early to tell but I guess we wills see. All the pups are placed were I will get lots of feed back and 3 or 4 of them I will be hands on with.

Author:  jmc243 [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stud dog management

I guess this was generated by my comment to Jim about his dog breeding, I hope I did not offend anyone but i was just trying to be funny. However I am glad this came out because I neutured what I beleived was an excellent dog both working and looks just last week because I felt i needed to become a more educated breeder before just getting a female and making lacy pups. That is what I think this forum is about and it helped me see that only a good breeder is any good for the breed. I know I am new to posting on here but I feel this forum needs to see more post like this because it's educates us all and makes for a better group that can learn from their differences.
The little I know and have learned about breeding so far, please educate me if I am wrong and I probably am but IMO I think it is important to have all different types of breeders working toward good dogs holding tight to one standard but without polluting the gene pool and because this breed almost went extinct I think it's even more important to spread the gene pool out so there are many branches of good stud standards creating good working dogs, not just a few studs. I also see Johns point of veiw that he wants to know what he is breeding is the best dogs he can breed. Just listening to a lot of folks on this forum it sounds like there are a lot of good dogs out there but to me it does not seem as though they are being used. Now I will sit back and learn from all you guys on this forum who i respect and have learned a lot of good sound advice!

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