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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:11 pm 
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I also get calls from folks wanting gray dogs...

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:56 pm 
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The first Tri. Lacy i ever saw was in 1956 on Mr. Clyed Lacys ranch. I do belive his daddy was one of the 4 Lacy brothers that started the breed.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:05 pm 
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Dam Jimmy you are as old as dirt and still look like a spring chicken. That is when you have shorts on . LOL :)) :)) :)) :))

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:24 am 
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Why are there so few old pictures of Lacys? You would think that people would have more of them...

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:36 am 
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Clifford I have woundered that myself .

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:21 am 
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I would suspect it is because they were just ranch dogs. The ranching life style, even today, is different from most peoples life style. It was a working way of life. They worked and still do, from sun up til sun down, with little time for frivolous things. The lacy family just knew the dogs as something that did it's job and it was no different from their horses or any other thing that did a job. That's just what I think, knowing a few old ranchers like I do.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Betty i agree on the pic. they didnot have a lot of time to be takeing pic. of thier livestock. As for color changes i dont think the colors are changeing at all. The thing that is changeing would be what people are calling them. Mr. Lacy had a Tri. Lacy in 1956 and he was i belive in his 80s then so i would think they were around for a while before that. As his dad was one of the 4 Lacy brothers that started the breed. And the story of Ol Yeller was about a yellow Lacy in Llano Tx. If he had been CREAM they would have called him Ol Cream. So as i see it the colors have not changed just the way people see them. The breed standerds were set for what we are trying to accomplish. If we change them every time a NEW color or coat or what ever comes along we will NEVER get anything set. J.M.H.O. :D :ymhug:

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 Post subject: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Ole cream dosen't work . I think if the testing can tell us what is causing the coloring changes . That would also tell how to stop it . I think that if there is a way to correct it and keep to the original colors then that is what you do . I have to agree that to change the standard to accommodate new colors is not the way .JMO


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:01 pm 
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These are pics of Remo.
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IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/tishastreasures/Remo/IMG_1510.jpg[/IMG]


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:24 pm 
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AWESOME pics!!! Thanks

I'm going to disagree on the color issue...if science tells us its possible then why are we going to exclude them from the standard colors??? The 'ol wood pile saying won't fly anymore...especially if you have a pedigree with several generations of registered sires and dams that meet the standard...

In the lab breed chocolate was not recognized right away either...but breeders kept producing the chocolate variation and their standard was changed.

I don't think you can base a standard on opinion alone...we now have the means to clarify the color issues...therefore in my opinion science should be part of the reason(s) to change if needed.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Its hard to see him the pictures are small and m eyes are not so good . LOL

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:39 pm 
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The object of doing the color testing is not to necessarily change the color standards, but to explain the colors. If we can explain the colors then there is absolutely no reason not to look at the standards and see what we want to do about them.

If you want to stay true to the lacy colors, then we have to exclude the tris, the creams and any blues who have any brown in their coat. The original lacys were blue and red. If the tris werent in there until the 50's, then they dont belong there. The creams sure don't belong in the mix. If we exclude the blues who have brown in the coat, then we are out of the tub as far as many dogs go.

If we exclude dogs that have blue in their red coats then we MUST exclude the blues who have brown in their coats. It is the same cross of colors that causes the differences. Jimmy, Patch would immediately be excluded because he is not blue-he is brown. So is Abe and most of the other blues that we know. Larry could stay because he is almost blue, but, hey, he is too big for our standards. We couldn't have any tris because they werent original to the breed. So, just where would that leave us? We would have standards that no dog could meet.

I am not saying to just jump in and change the standards, but to look at the causes for the different colors. Look to other breeds who have been around much longer than the lacy and to look at whether we want to continue to be one sided and include only what one or two people consider to be blue, red and tri, or to look at what science is telling us about what happens when you do mix blue to red, red to tri, etc.

The consequences of breeding blue to blue and red to red, only will lead to disaster, as we all know. If we continue to breed red to blue, blue to tri, red to tri then we will continue to come up with completely explainable colors. Are we going to continue to live in the dark and say that the pups that come from these crosses are not good enough for our standards?

Another thing that needs to be considered about the NLDA and its dogs is that we can count the amount of really good lacy dogs on 2 hands. Is this what we want also? We already have people who cant find good lacys to breed to. We have lost good people from this breed because they cant find good dogs. Is this what we want? Do we want people to continue to mix in other breeds to the lacy because they cant find a good one? Or, would it be a bit better to loosen up on the standards- according to what genetic science tells us, let in a few more good dogs, and bring this breed back to what it was?

Talk to people who work their dogs day in and day out, ranchers, people who use dogs for drug detection-- any work- and those people will tell you that color is the last thing on their mind. We have good working lacys out there who are not registered and the people could care less whether their dog meets standards- they are concerned that their dog can do the job.

The NLDA's mission statement is:
to maintain the integrity of the Lacy as a true working breed.

Our goal is to create and support a community of happy, healthy, functional Lacy Dogs that embody historically accurate breed standards.


To embody the historically accurate breed standards means- as I see it- that we go back to breeding good working dogs who are true blue and true red- and I dont know of any that are out there.

Just my honest to goodness opinion.
Betty

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Quote:
I have to agree that to change the standard to accommodate new colors is not the way .JMO


What everyone has to understand here is that if we dont look at understanding the color genetics and dealing with them, then there is no reason to spend the money to do the testing. If we cannot change standards based on scientific knowledge, then I will keep my 2 or 3 hundred dollars in my pocket, the NLDA can stay in the dark ages (before the wheel was invented) and we will continue to have too few dogs to maintain the breed. JMHO

Betty

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"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
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Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Location: Baytown TX
First I am not a breeder and have no desire to be one. Second if Remo is a fluke so be it he is a good dog and very happy dog. We brought him into our home because we wanted Gus to have a buddy. They work well together and seem to enjoy each other. We may not be the perfect home for Lacy's as far as working dogs go but they are very well taken care of and I get them out on the trail when I can. I researched this breed for 5 years before I took the plunge and have 0 regrets. As far as I'm concerned I don't care what color they are they are the best dogs I've ever had. I understand and agree with The NLDA mission statement and enjoy being a member of the NLDA. Betty I havent forgotten about Gus's paper work just been to busy to get it done. It is on the list and will send it soon.


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:15 pm 
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I'll spend the money to test my dogs...if the organization chooses to ignore science then so be it...but I personally want to know the reasons for the different colors...

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