NLDA Forum for Working Lacy Dogs
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color genetics
http://www.nationallacydog.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2594
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Author:  Fred R. [ Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

does anyone know how to produce a solid cream colored dog????
Does anyone know if i bred a tri to a red what i WILL produce????
what about a solid blue to a red????
Or a red to red???

I'd like to know...especially from the breeders with way more experience than i have...

Author:  jim b [ Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

No i dont think you can tell before hand. I bred a blue to a tri. and she had 4 reds 2 blues and 1 tri. I do THINK that if you breed 2 blues you have a better chanch of getting all blues. Over the yrs. i have bred all of the colors and NEVER knew what i would get untill they were born. EVERY litter has been different even from the same cross. :-\

Author:  jmc243 [ Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

looks like this post is getting a lot of hits, I don't have time to catch up reading it all tonight but can't wait until I can... Tisha I see u posted pics of your family's red- tri (Remo) what a cool looking lacy ... thanks for sharing them...

Author:  AmberLowMiddleton [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

Bluedog wrote:
Lets simply wait for the science on how color plays a part in our breed. Im sure there will be plenty of discussion once the data comes in..........


I've stayed out of this discussion, but I've been reading. At this point, I am neutral, and I agree with Bluedog's statement. I do want to point out, however, that just because it is possible for two "pure-blooded" Lacys to produce a puppy with a certain trait, doesn't mean it is desirable.

Author:  Fred R. [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

I have read all the posts...and I agree with Betty that some are missing the point...the goal or my goal for the color testing is to try and educate ourselves as to WHY dogs produce what they do. Or why they are the color that they are. I think we should be able to say that 2 dogs can't produce a certain color or that 2 dogs could produce a certain color...I don't think its a complete "roll of the dice"

I will also so say that I have NEVER asked that the standards be changed so that my breeding pair or their offspring "fit" the standard.

If i read the standard correctly it states..."there are three permissible color varieties. Blues are any shade of gray from light silver to dark charcoal. Reds range from light cream to rust. The tri combines these colors with a blue base and distinct red markings as appropriate for trim." Says nothing about a solid BROWN dog...

Therefore a solid cream or yellow...potato...patato already meets the standard...like it or not...and obviously there have been enough of them produced to put them in the standard.

It also states "Coat should be Short, smooth, and tight. Excessively long or rough coat is a disqualification."

So I hope that members will be open to the science based explanation of colors...not just personal opinions.

Author:  Fred R. [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

also...in order to get a cream colored dog both sire and damn have to be able to produce a red pup...then with the right combination of genes its diluted to cream

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Author:  jmc243 [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

OK I read all this is very interesting topic... Good topics and good points made by all... I am still learning the breed by talking and hearing what all of you say and write. My dogs will not breed and to be honest they can both pass the standard but like tisha it is not high on my priority list because I know what my dogs can do and I no my dogs are lacy's and that's all i need to no!
My dogs do not nessessarly need to be tested but as I said before I am willing to donate to help other dogs that the NLDA thinks would benifit from this testing .
I personally think to have some of the matriarch's and a few of the off color (lacy's) that are known Lacy's getting tested would be a huge benifit to moving the breed forward. I am sure we would all (even the one's who do not agree) learn some very interested genetic facts that would help this breed.

Author:  jmc243 [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

Fred is that my Red to the far left of the pups picture?

Author:  Fred R. [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

no...that was their first litter...your red was in the second litter...

Author:  CAMO [ Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

I am with Joe Like I said it before I am not against it at all and I offered to pay for a couple of dogs to be tested also. Amber I have to agree with you !

"I do want to point out, however, that just because it is possible for two "pure-blooded" Lacys to produce a puppy with a certain trait, doesn't mean it is desirable."

Fred I did not think you were trying to get the standard changed . I agree we need to under stand the colors and what they do .I am very open minded to finding out how to stop the change in the color of the dogs that we are seeing more and more so we can get back to the standard colors . Who has a brown dog I have not seen that one yet ?

Author:  Fred R. [ Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

Why stop it though? Are you going to tell me which dog i can breed to and which ones i can't? Like i said before the chocolate lab didn't show up right away either...but they changed their standards and it is now accepted. They didn't change their standard for just one dog either. These "new" colors may have needed to be included from the start...they may not have been...time will tell and the testing will certainly help. Both Betty and I have been told by experts that the color information on the NLDA website is incorrect...we're trying to "fix" that and educate ourselves and the members. There are some members that have already admitted they don't understand all the A's and E's and K's and that's fine. As a NLDA approved breeder i feel it is important to know the genetic makeup of my dogs and I want to know WHY. Why was a "red tri" produced in my kennel. I don't want to just sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't happen. I dare someone to say the sire and dam are of questionable bloodlines. When the tests come back we could all be wrong in what we are calling the dog who knows. He may not be a tri at all. I'm not sure why all breeders don't want to have their dogs tested. I'm sure I'm not tho only one with unanswered questions...i could be wrong though. I sure hope its to try and hide something. I do understand finances come into play...so don't think i misunderstand that point at all...trust me i do.

Author:  Betty L. [ Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

OK, I'm trying a different angle now.

When you breed a red dog to a blue dog you get a different lining up of the genes and will produce a different colored dog from either just red or blue. Hopefully, everyone understands that point.

When you get different colored dogs, other than just red or blue, those dogs are not acceptable by our standards.

Then, those dogs are kicked out of the gene pool.

If we dont want to get different colored dogs, then we HAVE to quit breeding red to blue, etc. Thats the only way that we can stop it.


Kicking 1,2 or 3 dogs from one litter out of the already small gene pool of working dogs just doesnt make sense.

Betty

Author:  jmc243 [ Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

I could be totally wrong here but after a night of thinking about Color Genetics and what I beleive could be helpful to the breed here is my opinion on Genetic testing:

I think finding out the color genetics will
#1) tell the potential color rainbow (desirable or undesirable) that Lacy's can be
#2) Tell possible colors if certain colors are breed together
#3) it will answer questions of why the colors that are already seen in Lacy's have occured...
#4) who knows it may even find defects to the blue gene if some colors are not culled.

If you are a breeder even if a certain color does not meet the standard you can still cull an unwanted color and if put into a home suggest they are nuetured or spayed but you can also claim the dog as a Lacy and the buyer who has agreed (or not) to nueter or spay can rest assured that although they have an undesirible colored Lacy they still very much have a Lacy. Even though they're color is undesirable and they may not be the best Lacy's to breed and may not meet the color standard ........ they could still be a solid hard working and Jam Up Lacy dog!

Author:  Betty L. [ Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

Here is a link to a website on horses. I ran across this quite by accident, but thought that I would share it, although it may cause some people to shutter. I ran across a horse called a cremello. I have never heard of that color, nor had ever seen a horse that color. When I looked cremello horse up, what did I find, but that a cremello is a cream color horse, a double dilute. Even tho the colors are referred to in different terminology, it is very simply understood and I love their motto! " A good horse is never a bad color" You will also note that the cremellos were outlawed from the AQHA until color genetic testing proved that it was the combination of 2 dilute genes that created the color of these horses.

http://www.doubledilute.com/

Betty

Author:  trapperchick87 [ Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: color genetics

Betty you just crossed a line..my understanding of the foundation of nlda was to have a group of WORKING dogs now if myassumptions are incorrect some one pleeease inlighten me...now if we want to talk color lets talk. I havee stayed out of this thred but have kept track of what has been said...the lacy breed has promoted its self as a breed free of genetic abnormalities..now people want to change the standard i have a huge problem with that,whats next curly haired multi colored lacy? But by joe that dog comes from workin lines an is a jam up dog? Come on lets get real! This color has been for the most part a 1 time thing. I have heard of 2 red tris. Yes the lab breed changed there standard after there was consistant chocolate labs not because of 1 dog. You want to talk horse color lets talk. The aqha was founded in 1940 thr cremello was accepted as a color in 2002 there is lot of time from when it croped up as a color untill the orginization acceted the color. Also in the case of overo paint there is a fifty fifty chance of the offspring being a normal overo paint or being a leathal white how many breeders do you know wghat to deal with pups being born dead? My personally i think its disheartening when that mother cant figure out whe here baby wont move! But hey you want color so we should get color by breeding dogs to improve the gene pool. If you want to breed an overo stallion you better get itiit color tested thats about a hundred bucks you have to shell out. Many horse people will tell you color doesnt matter well it does im not saying there arnt good palamenos or paints heck i owne5 aints but most will tell you they dont have a brain cuz they were bred for color.im not saying we need to regulate who gets bred to who like the sarlouswolfhound were you cant even get one of those dogs outside of europe. But as it was put to me about breeding my star gyp that she would pass her shy genetics on to her pups well guess what most of her problems were caused because of how she was raised as a pup grandma dog will gladly explain that to you and stars pups are as happy and out going as my hubands bordercollie pup. Im not saying the red tri wont become part of the standard eventually but lets wait an see consistant tris like other pure bred orginizations have. My point is lets do the testing if those individuals want to do it but my kennel can not afford to do it. You preach about needing to diversify the breed so betty why did you spay lucy then if she is a good blooded lacy? Lets quit nocking other people dog we are here to bring a good rep back to the breed not trash it like other orginizations have. Are we as breeders here to improve the breed as working dogs and not as designer dogs? If the lacys are in deed headed the same rout as the standard poodle then count my dogs out. Believe it or not the standard poodle was once a working dog but now look at it its no more then a pet. Color comes with the dog i have no problem with my quote brown dog. So lets get the testdone and be done with bad mouthing dogs,standards.an color. Ill talk color and genetics all day with some one wants to i got my degree in breeding and genetics with an emfacess in horses so please talk abot doubble dilute al, you want it changes nothing right this second but causes a bunch of people to get ticked off. Yes i do believe the red tri was caused by breeding a dog that had the dubble dilute gene im not contesting that fact.

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