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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:26 pm 
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Very good Betty was just trying to post the sections that made it a little easier to under stand. So we are on the same page about the colors not connecting with dogs that carry no white gene. Now that being said the white gene was not present in the dogs test. So will that account for every one of the blood lines or is it possible that some of our lacy dogs could carry it ? Betty are your dogs so far the only ones tested I know some others were going to do it ? Clifford is but has not got his back yet I think.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Colt has been tested and I have the results back from it, but have to send it on to JP for proper interpretation. Cynthia Johnson has sent in her swabs and I should be hearing from them about her dogs soon. I have other people who have gotten swabs, but have not sent them in and I have other people who want their dogs tested, but I have not sent them the swabs. I am still wanting more people to get their dogs tested, as only thru the testing will we know what colors this breed is supposed to be.

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Now that being said the white gene was not present in the dogs test. So will that account for every one of the blood lines or is it possible that some of our lacy dogs could carry it ?

I only know that JP has told me that our dogs do not have a white gene. I have sent your question on to her.

For people who do not know where this is coming from, we have dogs that have a lot of white on their chest and feet and some that have none or very little. I have been told by JP that the white spot on chest and feet is actually the absence of white and that it is caused by the color genes not coming together as melanocytes migrate down from the spinal column during embryogenesis. Basically, when the pup is forming, all cells start forming at the spinal column and move around and close at the mid-line or at the end of the foot. When all things are not exactly right, some cells do not come together, thus the lack of color- hence a white spot. This is totally different from having white as a Border Collie would have around the neck.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Thanks Betty I am really intrested in finding that out . I ask because IMO and I think most would agree,we seem to have to different looking lines in the lacy breed so is it possible there could be different color genes also. If so could the mixing of those 2 be a cause to the colors we are seeing? Can not wait for more results. I think I would like to have Tiny tested.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Betty did any of the dogs test show this gene?
White Spotting, S Locus Genotypes .

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:18 pm 
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I thought Tiny was coming to live with me.....just sayin

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:45 pm 
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Betty sorry have another question what about the ticking we are seeing in the white areas on some of the dogs. The ( T -locus ) Did any of your dogs show this and do any of your have ticking in there white ?

LOL Kevin !!

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:33 pm 
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The ticking gene was discussed when JP and I first started talking about all of this, but I dont know for sure what she said. There is no need to test for it, if there is even a test for ticking. If a dog has ticking, it should show. The ticking gene is very dominant and will almost always show up. As far as Lucy is concerned, yes, she has the ticking in the white. It has shown up in all of her off spring. When Abe was bred, it showed up in all pups but the red pup. So, out of 25 off spring, only one was not ticked!! LOL!!

When you are reading about the color genetics, some of the stuff is known, but not proven by DNA testing yet. They will show it as a letter, but it is just the things that they are presuming based on their knowledge and experience.

UCDavis tests for black/red (MC1R) shown as E or e and MC1R with melanistic mask, shown as Em. They test for dominant black which is black/brindle or fawn shown as K, K/N or N/N. The N simply means no black. Brown (TYRP1) is shown as B or b. They test for just a melanistic mask which would show Em or Em/N or N/N with the N being no mask. Then, they test for Agouti which has the 4 alleles, so several tests are with in this test. And, they test for dilute (MLPH).

I am testing for what JP tells me to test for. There are cases like Lucy, that we only tested for black/red. We didnt test for dilute, brown, melanistic mask or agouti. We know that she is dilute because all lacys are dilute. We know she is not brown, nor has a mask and we know that she is a^y/a^t because she is a tri.

On Colt, we only tested for black/red and dominant black.

If we test for each test, it costs more money, so we are only testing for what we dont know for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:14 am 
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So we can they test for the S- locus ? The testing is only being done for certain colors that we are selecting not a full spectrum due to cost. How can we draw any kind of conclusion from that ? Not trying to do anything but understand all of this.

"When you are reading about the color genetics, some of the stuff is known, but not proven by DNA testing yet. They will show it as a letter, but it is just the things that they are presuming based on their knowledge and experience."

So I am confused by this if they do not and can not prove certain things how can they call that science and give a gauranteed answer?

What is the cost to do a full color test ?

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:52 am 
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Quote:
So I am confused by this if they do not and can not prove certain things how can they call that science and give a gauranteed answer?


I guess that you are saying that all of the years of the people that have studied genes at any of the big colleges and research centers dont know anything. When you go to the doctor, what he tells you is partially based on what he has learned in his years of practicing medicine, what he was taught and the on going research in that field. He will do a test, if necessary, based on what he knows. Why is this any different?

Clarence Little is the man who is seen as the guru of color genetics in dogs. DNA testing was a long way in the future when he wrote his info about color genetics, but what he learned by breeding, studying, etc is the ground work of all color genetics today. You learn, not only by testing, but by studying the breeding of dogs and the outcome of the litter. You follow a litter and the breeding that comes from that off spring. http://doggenetics.co.uk/breeding.htm This website has a good explanation of how you can do your own genetics study and really, how it was done before DNA testing came along.

I could have tested Lucy for dilute, melanistic mask, agouti and brown, but simply put, it's not necessary to do that. Like I said before- all Lacys are dilutes-that is known! We know that she doesnt have a melanistic because she does not show one. We know that Lucy is a black and tan dog, so why test her for agouti? I base all of what I am doing on the word of a woman who has mapped the color gene code in the Harlequin great dane. That is the most complicated color there is. She has helped map the gene code for 12 other breeds. Just as I believe that my doctor knows what he is talking about, I believe JP and Dr. Schmutz and all the other genetics professionals that have lived and breathed the genetics of color in dogs know what they are talking about.

It costs $45 for the first test and $25 for each test after that. If we tested every dog for everything it would be $220. Its simply not necessary to ask people to spend that money, when we are working with some of the most knowledgeable people in the field. Some people are going to test for everything for their own knowledge, but I wouldnt spend $5 to test Lucy for dilute, or any other lacy.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:59 am 
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A little info about color genetics history. http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

Two classic books tell us much about the inheritance of coat colors and patterns in dogs. The one most quoted is by Clarence C. Little, The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs, Howell Book House, 1957. The other is by Ojvind Winge, Inheritance in Dogs with Special Reference to the Hunting Breeds, Comstock Publishing, Ithaca, N.Y. 1950. A third book, Comparative Genetics of Coat Colour in Mammals, by A. G. Searle, Logos Press 1968 is also a useful resource. This page is organized by the coat colors or pattern names and the gene loci postulated by Little are included where possible. Molecular studies are showing that Little was usually correct in his hypotheses, but not always.

Many people read a more recent book by Malcolm B. Willis, Genetics of the Dog, Howell Book House, New York. 1989. His terminology is different for several alleles than that of Little. This leads to some real confusion for people who try to read several books or webpages designed by people who have read some of these books. All 3 of these books are out of print so they are difficult to purchase, but try your local library. There is a chapter in a book called The Genetics of the Dog edited by A. Ruvinsky & J. Sampson, CABI Publishing but sold through Oxford in North America, which contains a chapter by Philip Sponenberg and Max Rothschild on coat color. This book is still for sale by order at orders@oup-usas.org.

None of these books contain DNA studies however. All are based on hypothesized alleles at hypothesized loci to fit data obtained from coat colors and patterns of dogs from various breeds and litters. DNA research has shown that there are more genes involved than those hypothesized by these authors and that the actual number of alleles at genes they discuss is more for some genes and fewer for other genes. An invited review paper on the DNA research on the genes known to be involved in coat color was published December 1, 2007 in Animal Genetics, with the photo page shown above.
Schmutz, S.M., T. G. Berryere. 2007. A review of the genes affecting coat color and pattern in domestic dogs. Animal Genetics 38: 539-549.

There is a very good book entitled "Future Dog, Breeding for Genetic Soundness" by Patricia J. Wilkie. This was commissioned by the Canine Health Foundation. Although the information on coat color does not use the typical abbreviations and is limited in this book, the explanations of basic inheritance and new DNA approaches to research and diagnosis is very good.

This webpage is an attempt to summarize some of the current DNA research being done on dog coat color. Whenever possible, publications are listed documenting the research supporting the statements. Unless otherwise stated, the research that is not referenced is work from our laboratory or work done in conjunction with our collaborators. Sometimes the work is not yet published but is the result of experiments in progress or even just hypotheses of which gene might be the locus Little described from recent DNA findings in other species. It typically takes a year from the time the data are written in a manuscript and that manuscript appears in a scientific journal. We are far from having identified all the genes involved in dog coat color using DNA. There seem to be many more than Little predicted. Therefore do not consider this summary a final conclusion, but merely a work in progress.

When you read these pages and attempt to determine the genotype of your dog or an upcoming litter, please keep in mind that no gene acts in isolation. All dogs have all these genes. In some breeds the alleles are "fixed" which means all dogs are homozygous for the same allele. As a rule of thumb, the more coat colors that occur in your breed, the more genes will be needed to explain the genotype and phenotype of your dog. Furthermore there are interactions among the various genes in the pathway so that some colors are not possible unless particular alleles occur at more than one locus (i.e. a dog must have at least one E at MC1R and two of the b mutations at TYRP1 to be brown).

Our dog color research uses dogs owned by private individuals who participate in our studies by contributing DNA cheek brush samples. Most of the samples come from breeders who respond to a request through their breed club, students in our classes or individuals we approach at dog events. These are not dogs bred in research colonies, but simply dogs living normal dog lives. We thank them and their owners for volunteering their DNA to help us understand the gentics of color better.

Our research has been funded by a number of sources over the past few years. We thank the Canine Health Foundation of the American Kennel Club, the Natural Science and Engineering Research Council of Canada and HealthGene Laboratory, Toronto for their support.

"Color Breeding"

Recently there are several dog clubs, groups and breeders speak about "Color Breeding" with disdain. The research we conduct is not meant to advocate that dog breeders purposefully crossbreed or breed mutants to introduce colors or patterns that were not a tradition in their breed. Our research is meant to help dog breeders understand how coat colors and patterns are inherited so that if more than one color variant has been a classic color in their breed, they can plan matings to get pups of one or another color or several if that suits the aims of their breeding program. I do not think that rare colors should raise the price, let alone the "value" of a dog. I would hope that we value every dog we bring into our life, whatever breed or color it might be.

Color has been an integral trait in the development of many dog breeds. It was used for at least one hundred years as one of the traits under selection. In a few cases, certain colors were selected against because the people at a particular time in history thought these colors typically brought health related problems with them. Some colors do. Other colors were selected against or for because the breeders felt that those colors help that breed do its job better, as in the case of the preponderance of brown colored hunting dogs in the European hunting breeds. Those 19th century hunters thought that brown was a better camouflage color and several of them were poaching game on the baron's land!

"Guessotypes" versus Genotypes

Coat color genetics has fascinated many people for many, many years. There are countless websites posted attributing specific genotypes to specific dogs based on the classic books by C. C. Little (1957) or O. Winge (1950). Many teachers have asked students to attempt such an exercise, as a learning experience, including me.

However, these are at best an educated guesstimate of the underlying true genotype. I sometimes therefore call these “guessotypes” to distinguish them from actual genotypes obtained by DNA testing. Keep in mind, that not all alleles, and not even all genes involved in dog coat color are yet identified and so a complete coat color genotype is not yet possible for many breeds of dogs.

Trying to do good guessotyping requires several high quality photographs, or better, a chance to examine the living dog. Even good guessotyping is prone to flaws when the photos are not great or the dog is a breed that has several possible genotypes associated with the same phenotype, or worse is of a phenotype that changes with age. Trying to guessotype from a word description about the coat color of a dog is especially hazardous.

For example, a dog described as red, black and white could be a black-and-tan dog with white feet and/or face. It could be a fawn dog with a black facial mask and random white spots. It could be a brindle dog with a white chest mark. It could be a fawn dog with a white blaze and black skin showing around its muzzle, but actually no black hair. It could be a merle dog with copper points and Irish spotting. It could be a fawn dog with pale undersides and black tipped hairs along its spine. It could be a fawn puppy with black tipped hairs all over and a small white chest spot that changes to a very pale cream over its entire body by 3 years of age. Words only go so far in accurately describing a coat color phenotype.

Although guessotyping can be fun and even a bit of a useful mind puzzle and/or educational exercise, it should not be used to make serious decisions about the coat colors possible in offspring or parents. In other words, guessotyping has limitations. Therefore let's try to limit its use to certain exercises and not assume that guessotypes are necessarily accurate.

Articles in the Popular Press

Genetics of Coat Color in Dogs. Versatile Hunting Dog, January 2001 issue, p. 13-14. Sheila Schmutz.

Coat Color by Crayon. Canine Review, September 2003 issue. Sheila Schmutz.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Betty does your test person say there is a test for the S-locus that is what I am trying to find out. There are many breeds saying or showing this gene in there make up as if it can be tested for . Also What is the cost to have a dog fully tested with out telling them what color we are looking for I really want to know I am considering doing this full test? I am just the type of person. Can you please ask her these 2 questions for me ? To me that will be the only way to get a full and accurate understanding of what the dogs carry IMO ? I want to look at the whole picture if it is possible. I just think that selecting a few colors to look at is not giving me the full picture of what we are dealing with. JMO

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Quote:
Also What is the cost to have a dog fully tested with out telling them what color we are looking for I really want to know I am considering doing this full test?
$220 from UCDavis

There is a test for the spotting gene, but UCDavis is not doing it on a large scale yet. I suspect that Health Gene does and will find out. I did talk to Jen at UCDavis (who is actually working with the lacy) and asked her about the spotting gene. She said that she will go back on the dogs that she has already tested and test them for the spotting gene.

To explain why the experts believe that the lacy white spot is not a spotting gene is that a spotting gene usually is larger that the spots on the chest and toes.

Quote:
with out telling them what color we are looking for

You do not tell UCDavis what color your dogs are. You tell them what test you want done, but they have no way of knowing whether the dog is blue or polka dotted.

To get the complete picture that you are wanting, many, many more dogs are going to have to be tested. I want to see if any blues have melanistic masks. That means that people who have blues who have a dark muzzle will have to be found and tested.

The main thing about testing is that if you test, then you can use that for breeding purposes. You know what your dog carries- then when you want to breed that dog, you look for other breeders who have tested their dogs and you find a mate that will produce the color of pups that you want or will not produce colors that you do not want.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Here is a website that deals with the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/interactive/c ... lor-1.html

This is a very informative website and was written by By JP Yousha, Danika Bannasch DVM,PhD, & Phyllis McDonald JP tells me that the lacy breed genetics and the people involved are much like us. Some of it is difficult for me to understand, but I do learn something every time I read and re-read something. For those of you who understand genetics, its a good website to read.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:04 pm 
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John, I think it would give use a lot of good information if you did have a complete test run. both of your dogs being blue. I truly wish I had available the differant colors in the 5-6 genarations of our Lacy dogs.It is not noted on their registration papers [ so it a crap shoot] on what color combo you will get. that also would help it make since to a lot of people why we get all the differant color combos pop up. I just found out of a litter of pups born , both sire and dam being blue produced a tri. Now this female has been bred to a [what we call a cream] produced blues and creams and a red. then bred to a blue produced red and blues with one red having the blue around the mouth. Then bred to a diffrent blue male and she had a tri. I would be willing to bet that she has a tri not to far back in her bloodlines. because as far as I know the sire dont have a tri in his bloodline. For the people that can afford the complete test I can only hope that it will be done.But until we dna color test our breeding stock we will never be able to prove that the off colors pups are coming from now many genarations of crossing 3 differant colors togeather. Until someone can prove to me that crossing reds to blues for genarations is not the results of us having red pups with blue masks and blue strips down their backs. or blue pups that have a washed out red/brown color cast to their coats. Then I stand my ground that i believe that red to blue or blue to red will prouduce these off color pups. Who would have known that the white on our lacys was not a color gene. I sure thought it was till the dna proved me wrong.
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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:15 pm 
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If I had the money I would donate it to Courtney to have a complete test run . Her dog is a perfect example to see what genes produced her color. and I am not picking on you Courtney. It is just a good example to get results from. I would like to see it in black and white print. Not just me as a lay person flapping my mouth about what I believe. I don't have a clue what Courtney dogs sire and dam was , but willing to bet a loaf of home bread that it was from a red and blue cross or at the least grandparents being red or blue
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