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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:42 pm 
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GD I am going to get Tiny tested for all . I think her red over blue would be a good dog to test. Jimmy's Patch is Daddy and My Bella being Dam.Betty great info need to re read it again . Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Colt was tested for MC1R- the E locus- which is the test for red/yellow (e/e)-phaeomelanain - versus the dogs that have some black, brown or blue in our case (E/E)-eumelanin. He was also tested for agouti (a) and dominant black (K).

Colt is E/e which means that he is has a copy of black (E) and copy of the red/yellow (e). Colt could produce a clear red, but it would depend on the genetic make up of the mate. The agouti testing proved that Colt is a^y/a^t which means that he is a fawn and carries the black and tan gene. Colt is N/N and does not have the dominant black mutation. The black mutation is kinda misleading. In the case of our dogs, we need to think of it as a solid dark colored dog. All BLUE colored lacys must have a dominant K- they are all K/K or K/N. K/K dogs can only produce BLUE colored offspring. K/N BLUE lacys can produce Red and Tri lacys when bred to such.

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Robby and Colt at the bench show-LSWDA Dawg Days by scarebetty, on Flickr

Colt

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:15 pm 
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I wanted to keep the white spotting gene at least in a different post from the info about Colt's testing.

The deal with the white spotting gene is this:
There is a test for white spotting and is known as the piebald gene (MITF). There are two genes responsible for white spotting-the piebald and the Irish spotting. There is no test for the Irish spotting yet.

White spotting es erratic so there are no hard rules, but there are rules of thumb. White other than the chest and toes does usually indicate the presence of some form of white spotting gene, but it could be Irish, not piebald. Piebald is referred to as erratic or excessive white. When the tests come back from UCDavis on the white spotting testing doesnt mean completely that the dog isnt carrying white spotting genes, just isnt carrying the piebald white spotting or is the situation of the genes not coming together right. BUT if you breed even dogs just carrying for Irish, eventually two meet, & white collars, socks & stockings, white tail tips, bellies, blazes & so on WILL occur.

The lacys who have large white spots on them and produce pups that have white on the chin, down on the belly, etc probably have a white spotting gene. Could be piebald, could be Irish. But, the odd bits of white markings on some of the lacys (just chest and toes) are not inheritable. They are the result of random events during development.

This certainly explains why some lacys have large white markings and white markings other than the chest and toes and why some have little or no white markings.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:57 am 
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So in a perfect world a breeder wanting to produce Blue's only, and both sire and dam with K/K would produce only Blue ?

Or wanted to produce only Reds and Tri, both would have to carry K/N?
And if I am reading this right one dog can't carry both.

And breeding pairs, one carrying K/N the other carrying K/K could produce , red, tri or blue
Have we found out yet what combo produce's the red dog with blue marking around it mouth ,ears blue stripe down back.?

I was waiting on Colts profile because of him being out of a tri and blue cross.

What I am looking for is the combo to produce tri only.
I tryed to write this out so a layperson could understand it,
Grandmadawg


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:21 am 
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FYI-
Duke and Baylee-both Tris-have yet to produce a blue pup to my recollection. I have had three litters by that cross and have produced 10 Tri pups and 4 red pups.
I had a litter out of Baylee by Tuff (Brooks Bull X Fiddler) with 3 pups 2 tri and 1 blue.


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Quote:
So in a perfect world a breeder wanting to produce Blue's only, and both sire and dam with K/K would produce only Blue ?

Or wanted to produce only Reds and Tri, both would have to carry K/N?
And if I am reading this right one dog can't carry both.


Right!

Aaron, I would love to test Baylee! Too bad that we cant test Tuff and that would give us another good look at crosses and their offspring. We are going to test Bull when Bobby comes home again. Let me know if you want to go for the testing. The more dogs we test, the more we learn!!

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:04 pm 
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I will be testing both Rip(son of Duke and Baylee) and Ria...sometime in the near future...they have produced 2 cream pups and a red pup with tri like markings...


i hope that will tell us more on color genetics...

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:29 pm 
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So what you are saying is I have the closest thing to a true red we have found? :))

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Robby, I knew you would say that.......the bragging has begun...lol

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:52 pm 
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sounds like we were inneed of a clear red......but Robby, we will never hear the end of this.....Quick we need another clear red.....

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Very good info we are going to get a full test done on Tiny.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:26 am 
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Ok so the color testing is being done so now my question is how is going to help us and how? Betty what are they saying is the solution to or color problem or are we just stuck with what we have?

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:55 am 
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I think that is a good question John......Im not sure if enough hounds have been tested to give us a complete answer to what you are asking. The cows may be out of the barn so to speak.......I havent been directly involved like Ms Betty but would imagin it will come down to how many pure reds or blues there actually are, so far Robby's Colt is the only pure red and dont know if there have been any pure blues. Without the pure hounds as I understand we will continue getting the dilute. Probably not saying this right so Ill wait for someone else to straighten me out.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:42 am 
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Hey Guys!
go back and re-read what Betty posted on the results from Colt. It DOES NOT say he is a pure red, only that he is carrying a gene, that if he is breed to the correct gene-o female, he could produce a pure red pup. His sire is blue Dam is Tri
Betty please correct me if I am wrong and misread the info posted
Grandmadawg


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:48 pm 
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You are right, Roni, Colt is not a clear red. He is E/e. He can only produce a clear red pup when bred to a dog with the right genotype.

Quote:
Ok so the color testing is being done so now my question is how is going to help us and how? Betty what are they saying is the solution to or color problem or are we just stuck with what we have?


'They' are not saying anything to us. We have the science available to us to determine why a blue dog bred to a red dog will produce the three colors of lacys, or why a blue bred to a blue might produce all red pups and anything inbetween. That science is telling us why pups are blue with a red cast and red with blue hairs. We are learning why one dog has more white than others. We, as guardians of the lacy breed, have to take this information and use it to determine where the breed goes. It's all up to us, as an association, and each individual breeder to use the information.

A breeder who would want to produce clear reds would have to find an e/e or E/e dog and breed that dog to the same genotype. The same would go as far as the other colors- you would have to know what genotype your dog is and find another dog who was tested to know what it would produce-so that you could produce the true colors that you might be looking for.

With the breeding of one color to the same color, you run the risk of the breed developing color coat alopecia. That we sure dont want. We may get it as the breed becomes increasingly popular, but we should do what we can as breeders to be responsible.

Quote:
Without the pure hounds as I understand we will continue getting the dilute.

Just to clarify:

All lacys are dilutes. The breed is probably set at the dilute locus. I think that what is being said is that we will continue getting the dogs who are seen as the undesirable colors. It is my opinion that there are few 'true' colored dogs out there. There has been so much crossing of the colors that there just not a lot of them out there. One must also understand that some genes are recessive to other genes and this has a great influence on the genes. The clear red e/e is recessive to other color genes, so that has a big influence on the colors. We simply cannot breed to 'clean out' the breed and if we were to try to do that, we would have to test each and every dog and breed only those dogs, then test all pups and cull the ones who didnt have the right genes. That would take the breed back beyond 'rare' and I would hope that just doesnt seem feasible to people!!!!

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"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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