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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:33 pm 
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More questions ? If we were to just go back to breeding blue to blue Red to Red with out any testing would it help at all or not make any difference ? ?

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:34 pm 
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Quote:
More questions ? If we were to just go back to breeding blue to blue Red to Red with out any testing would it help at all or not make any difference ? ?


Depends on what you are calling a difference.

If you are asking if it will clean out some of the colors that some people dont like-then
sure, if you have years to do it. You would have to find what you 'think' is a clear red, breed it to what you 'think' is a clear red, and see what you get. If you dont get what you want, then you can wait a year, (in the case of the female) produce another litter from another cross and see what you get. And so on and so on.

Then, you can cull all of the pups that dont meet your wishes. The ones that might make it, wait until they are 18 months and then breed them when the time comes. Out of this breeding, again cull the pups that dont fit. Years and years down the line, you should have a clear red and a true blue.

How many breeders would do this? You can color test and that takes at the very most, $220. Takes about a month and you know exactly what you need to know. If you want to produce clear reds, find a dog that you 'think' is clear red and talk that dogs owner into testing and zap! you know what you have. This is how the folks in the big breeds do. But, hey, since Lacys are pretty much redneck dogs, lets do it the hard, long way!! :))

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:48 pm 
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:ymapplause: :)) :)) I almost choked on my pepsi I was laughing so hard. but it will take years to breed out all the color combos that has been breed into the gene pool when the DNA TEST could put the breeder light years ahead of the game in producing true reds, true blue's and true tri's
Hopefully a good example: John's Patch [Future 1 lacy to win at UNCLE EARLS baying]
John will have Lacy Gyps coming out of the wood work.
You have Patch a complete D.N.A Profile on record. You could very easy require all gyps to have D.N.A. PROFILES done. that way YOU CONTROL the resulting pups colors, you would lose breedings for sure. but you control the gene pool of resulting pups produced.It will take a long of time............ but , this D.N.A. TESTING WILL BE a common thing of the future. I think.
Grandmadawg


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:13 pm 
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I have decided that I am putting my breeding program on hold for a while.We are committed to breeding Patch 1 more time then we are done. I think we are just going to set back and just work the dogs we have rather than breed any more dogs. I for one do not want to contribute to the colors getting woarse and dang sure do not have the funds to do the rquired testing for all my breeding dogs. I can pretty much figure if some one wants to stud to my dogs and I tell them they need to spend $200.00 before that can happen and have color testing done they will tell me to take a walk. I just can not understand why this was not figured out a long time ago. Who was in charge of all the breeding over the last 10 or 15 years. What a mess!!!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:06 am 
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John,
I sure did not intend that email to be anything other then an example. using patch was done ,as me hoping him to be the first Lacy to win UNCLE EARLS, and at that point being a highly vaualable stud.I also took into conseration , one pup would pay for the test and still have money left over. Please take it as I ment it. nothing more. but IF I OFFENDED YOU , i AM SORRY.
Grandmadawg


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:23 am 
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No I am not at all offended at all GD. We have invested so much time and money already that we are just going to work some dogs for a while. This whole color thing is just a mess and I am a perfectionist. I just decided that I will leave the breeding up to others that have the funds to do it correctly. I will see how it goes for them my dogs are all young so we will re look at breeding some time down the road maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:21 pm 
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John....reconsider........

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:13 am 
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There is not a lot to consider Kevin breeding Lacys is getting very expensive with hip testing and then color testing and whats next ? The problem is pet owners will pay $700 to $1000. Hog dog owners will not. I would be laughed out of the bay pen if I asked that kind of money for a un proven puppy. Anyway I suspect I will not be the only one priced out of the breeding game. I will keep working mine and keep the Lacy name out there . That is what I enjoy the most.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:54 am 
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John,

I'm sorry, but I just dont know where you are coming from with all of this.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with your dogs. You could test them if you wanted to, but you certainly dont have to. You have blue dogs and there is nothing that says they shouldnt be bred.

If you had red dogs that had a lot of blue on them, then that would be a little different. The red on a blue dog is acceptable. Blue on red is not and what I am out to prove and have done that on a very small scale, is that the red on blue is exactly the same as the blue on a red. Colt (a red) is the same as Abe (a blue with red) as they both are agouti fawns.

I was only talking about someone who wanted to produce something like a clear red, which there is probably only a few out there. Testing to prove that a dog is a clear red is the only thing that can be done to eliminate the red with blue. So, if you dont want clear red dogs, then you have no problem.

This situation with the colors in the dogs has not happened in just 10 or 15 years. It takes ages for genes to mutate and part of the color genetics in dogs is just that- a mutation of genes. This cannot be reversed and is accepted at all levels of the dog kingdom.

True, a hog dog buyer, or a rancher, etc isnt going to want to spend a lot of money on testing a dog. I was only talking about people who wanted to produce certain colors and breed for that. Genetic testing is done a LOT in breeds where people breed for certain colors. And, if your dogs were producing some strange colors, then you might want to look deeper into testing, but your dogs are producing blue dogs. No problem.
And, if someone does want to test for color, they DO NOT have to spend the full $200 plus. Like I have said before, you test for what is not expressed. You do not have to test for dilute, because EVERY lacy is a dilute. You dont have to test for brown, unless you just want to make sure, as my case with Abe and his brown tone. Now that I know that agouti genes produce that color, then I will not tell anyone else to test for brown. Most dogs you wont test for the melanistic mask, unless you have a litter that has a pup with one. I wouldnt test Luna for the melanistic mask because its obvious that she has one. I didnt test Lucy for tri- she is one!! So, unless someone just wants to spend the money and test for everything, then the cost of testing can be kept around $100. That is still a bit, but its knowledge for people who want to use it.

I have never said that every breeder has to have their dogs tested. It is not like testing for hip dysplasia or that kind of stuff- it is only if a breeding pair is turning out strange colored dogs, or if they want to produce a particular color, time after time.

What I am testing for right now is simply to set the colors in these dogs and to explain the colors that we are seeing. We need to understand the colors and what causes them. After we have tested a good number of dogs, then at that point, the new information will replace the old, outdated info on the website and anyone can use it however they please.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Betty I am just waiting to see how this whole color thing turns out and what role it will play in the future of the Lacy dog. I want to understand it more be for we continue on with what we are doing with our breeding program. When ever changes like this come about , I see nothing wrong with doing the right thing for our kennels and our buyers. For our kennels that is to take a step back from it for a year or two. That is all it is nothing more than that as far as color thing goes. So we are just going to sit back and learn and understand and take it all in for a while. We just do not want to put any more pups out at this time. We are just going to work what we have and see how the puppies we have produced in the last 2 years turn out. Then we will look at were we are and were we go from there.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Does that mean Tiny is coming to live at my house........that way you can spend more time with you other hounds.....right

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Kevin [-x [-x [-x !

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Look John......Im trying to help, its a logistics thing.....Im your man ^:)^

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:22 pm 
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I got the results back from testing a pair of dogs that are registered with the TLGDA. These dogs belong to Cynthia Johnson and I thank her for being involved with this.

We tested her red dog and a blue bitch because they produced a completely red litter. There were 4 reds and 4 creams (dilute red) in the litter. This is rarely seen and we wanted to find out what was going on. The results were interesting to say the least!

We had thought that Jasper (the red male) must be a clear red to have produced all red pups, but that is not the case. Jasper is the same as Colt was- E/e, which means that he can produce clear red pups, only if he is bred to the right mate. N/N which means that he does not carry the dominant black gene and is ay/at, which means that he can produce tris- all the same as Colt is.

Grits is the blue bitch and tested E/e, K/N (carries the dominant black gene) and she is ay/a. The single a means that Grits is a carrier of the recessive black gene, which is really rare.

JP Yousha-
"What this means is that there are 2 ways to make a blue dog in the lacy breed. One is the normal dominant black mutation, which is the K and the rare agouti black. Grits is blue because of the dominant K gene, but she can produce blue puppies with a completely different set of genes. This 'may' explain the 2 different colors of blues in the breed. You actually have 2 types of blue and it is possible the dominant sort of blue looks different than the recessive, because they are working off of 2 different mutations."

"Jasper is an agouti red (fawn) dog but carries the gene for recessive (clear) red (E/e) so he can produce both reds depending on how he is bred. He is also a carrier for tri (a^y/a^t). He's N/N as all agouti reds are N/N- but you have to test for this anyway when you dont know if the dog is a clear red or agouti red."

Grits, the blue bitch, also carries for clear red and agouti red both. She is E/e so carries for clear red and she is K/N, so can produce agouti genes (fawn, tri, recessive black) including agouti red dogs like Jasper. What I didnt expect is that she carries the recessive black gene (a^y/a) and so this proves this rare gene actually exists in the your breed.

This combination of these 2 parents can produce blues (50/50 shot of getting a K/N carrier blue like dam is), agouti reds, (because both carry a^y) and clear reds (because both carry recessive e). Tris cannot be produced as bitch doesnt have the gene ( and it takes two to tango). Statistically, they are going to have litters at least 1/2 red every time, although if you rebreed them, she could (should) throw some blues next time.

Each time an egg meets with a sperm, it's a toss of the dice, so the individual results in a litter can look like a crap shoot, but like at the craps tables, it is fixed how many ways you can make what pairings. Here there are two ways to make reds via recessives both parents carry, and one dominant gene from the bitch only to make blues. She has to give her one "K" gene (or meet another Lacy with the recessive 'a') to make blue pups. Sire here cannot help make blues as he carries only genes for red and tri."

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"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:39 pm 
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wow.....thats alot of info. I hope that hellped Cynthia figure out what happened when she had the full red litter.

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