Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ

Board index » Dr. Dog » Breeding & Genetics




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:50 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:21 am
Posts: 2286
Location: Jarrell Texas
We have decided in our breeding program to only breed blue to blue. It seems to have the least amount of problems. That is all we have ever done and we have had few issues. We were looking at breeding our blues females to other colors but we have decided we will not be doing that and to just keep doing what has worked well for us. We are still looking at making some other changes be for we go back to breeding dogs.

_________________
"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"
- John Wooden


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:36 am 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:46 pm
Posts: 4640
I found a 'true blue' and he was right under my nose!! I decided to test Larry as he is a really pretty blue, altho he does have some brownish patches on him. He turned out to be pretty cut and dry as far as color genetics go.

Larry was tested for the black/red (MC1R) gene and he came back as several others have- E/e. Again, this means that he is not clear red, but could produce clear red (e) if he was bred to a mate with the right genetics.

He was tested for the dominant black gene and came back K/K which means that he is a dominant black, but since these dogs are dilutes, he is dominant blue.

The agouti testing shows that he is homozygous (homozygous refers to having identical alleles for a single trait) or a^t/a^t. Tris are shown as a^t- so Larry is homozygous for tris.

Simply put, Larry could produce clear reds if mated to the right bitch. He can produce a true blue and he can produce tris.

Image
Just Larry being handsome by scarebetty, on Flickr

_________________
Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:10 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:43 pm
Posts: 1607
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
look at that grin on his face, I think he knows hes a stud dog......

_________________
Funny how falling feels like flying....for a little while

Have you ever layed low when you could have stood tall


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:54 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:46 pm
Posts: 4640
He is handsome, isnt he??!!

_________________
Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:56 am 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:28 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Betty,

Thanks for heading up all of the information on the color testing, studying it, testing for it and helping the rest of us. I really wish I could understand all of the symbols, which color codes would produce which possible color outcomes, but this eludes me. In the short time that I was home I was unable to bring Bull and a couple of the other dogs in for testing, so I'm going to talk my twin boys into hauling them up for me, so you can test them. Would it beneficial to test a few suspected breeds, so that we can determine if there are any genetic color traits that come from those breeds as some have claimed or does the testing that has been conducted so far prove that there are only the various resulting colors due to crossing Lacy dogs of various colors? For example: some of the reddish blues, blueish reds with blue tip tails and blue muzzles, red-tri's, saddle backs, etc..... I'd love to prove that we get some of the more unusual colors because of our historical breeding practices over the last 154 years, by breeding reds with tris, blues with reds, blues with tris, etc...rather than the assumption that it is due to out crossing to other breeds in the past. In addition, is there a chart that shows the color symbol definitions and the possible color outcomes when color tested Lacy dogs have been crossed, so that we can know to some degree what colors we may expect? Also, is there some connotation in a registered dog's papers, so that it is part of their permanent record, so that we can choose more wisely when selecting a mate for a particular color outcome. Again, I don't understand it, but am a huge believer in the testing and science behind all of the genetic color results, kinda like electricity, I can't see it or understand it, but I know the lights come on when I flip the switch. Again, thanks for all your hard work.

Bobby


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:01 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:46 pm
Posts: 4640
Quote:
Would it beneficial to test a few suspected breeds, so that we can determine if there are any genetic color traits that come from those breeds as some have claimed or does the testing that has been conducted so far prove that there are only the various resulting colors due to crossing Lacy dogs of various colors? For example: some of the reddish blues, blueish reds with blue tip tails and blue muzzles, red-tri's, saddle backs, etc.


Color genetics doesnt look at breeds. If we tested a black mouth cur for color genetics, we would still be testing for the same genes. The yellow of a BMC would be tested the same way that we test a red lacy. So, testing for where the colors come from just doesnt work.

I am testing a few lacys for the melanistic mask which the BMC has. Not because I think the mask came from a BMC in a bad breeding, but because we know that we have red dogs who have a mask. There has to be blue dogs out there with masks. They just dont show. I want to find a few blue dogs that do have the mask simply because I want to prove that there are more dogs out there with masks than we know. I cannot prove where the mask came from, but I can prove that it is out there in blue lacys.

I started this testing to prove that the colors that we are seeing are simply from the crossing of the colors. I cant prove to everyone that this is what is causing the blue reds and the red blues, but science can explain it.

Everyone knows and understands that the lacy breed is a mix of several breeds. Some breeds are there on purpose, some by accident. Those genes will forever be in the breed. When you get a different colored lacy, before the testing, we didnt know whether that dog is different because of its parents colors, or if a stray gene decided to show up. With color testing of the parents, we can show that the pup is a direct result of the colors of it parents.

I will answer your other questions tomorrow.

_________________
Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:48 am 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:21 am
Posts: 2286
Location: Jarrell Texas
I would think you would have to do DNA testing ro prove that and you would have to know the DNA of the dogs mixed in to do that. Betty l think you posted at one time that someone had DNA testesting done on a registered lacy and one of the dogs that were found in that lacy was Ja k Russell terrier. Now unless that Jack Russell found a way to not pass on his color genes it is going to be pretty difficult to rule out that some of colors came from else were. Not to mention that there are not many breeds DNA on record . That was the problem they had with testing the lacy to see what was in them.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

_________________
"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"
- John Wooden


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:51 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:43 pm
Posts: 1607
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
I would think there are several breeds in the makeup of the Lacy. You never know when some distant gene may rear its head and throw a kink in any given litter. I would think we are fairly far along with breeding to not have alot of throwbacks but stuff happens. If the jack Russell is part of the Lacy history I certainly hope their wirey hair doesnt show up. That would be a hard Lacy to look at.

_________________
Funny how falling feels like flying....for a little while

Have you ever layed low when you could have stood tall


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:23 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:21 am
Posts: 2286
Location: Jarrell Texas
Betty knows more about it she posted it when that guy was looking for a stud and want to see DNA testing on any candidates .So you would agree then kevin . That the Jack Russel color gene would be there if his DNA was present right? I do not know for sure when that test was done Betty may know.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

_________________
"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"
- John Wooden


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Brenham
Betty, when you say red blues and blue reds what do you mean exactly? Is that a blue dog with a tint of red highlights, and a red lacy with a tint of blue highlights?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:04 am 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:21 am
Posts: 2286
Location: Jarrell Texas
Not to speak for Betty but that is what she means Chris. We see blues that have a red or brown tint we have seen that for a long time. Now we are seeing a lot of reds that are showing blue on them. We have also seen a few new color combinations .I am not sure if you have been keeping up with this thread but it is very intresting . Its a lot of info to take in.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

_________________
"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"
- John Wooden


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:26 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:46 pm
Posts: 4640
Image
Larry and Abe by scarebetty, on Flickr

John is right in what he said in answering Chris' question. The above picture shows Larry, who is a pretty true blue lacy. The other dog is Abe who is a blue lacy that shows the brownish cast to his coat. Both dogs have been tested and their color has been explained in the previous posts about both dogs. Also on Abe, a darker stripe and tail shows up real well in this picture.

Red dogs that have a touch of blue on them will have that blue stripe that goes down the back and will also have a blue tail. In most reds, this goes away with age, but in a few dogs, it stays noticeable. The reason for this, in both colors, is that these dogs have what is called an agouti gene. Abe is known as an agouti red (fawn), but he also carries the dominant black (K) which overrides the agouti red and that makes him blue. Deep, I know,, but understandable. The agouti red gene is what causes the blue stripe on the back. It has nothing to do with whether the dog is colored red, or colored blue, they will have a blue stripe down their back. Because color goes in different depths, such as a darker red as opposed to a lighter red, the depth of the blue depends on whatever gene controls the depth of the color.

_________________
Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:59 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:46 pm
Posts: 4640
Quote:
In addition, is there a chart that shows the color symbol definitions and the possible color outcomes when color tested Lacy dogs have been crossed, so that we can know to some degree what colors we may expect?


There is what is called a punnet square that can help breeders, and us, understand what happens when you breed one color to another. I have been intending to get one worked up and post it, so I will try to do that soon. Here is a link to an explanation to the punnet square http://doggenetics.co.uk/breeding.htm I can do the same thing with the lacy breed using K,N,E,e, I think. I have an email where JP told me how to do it, but I cant find it right now, but will. It will explain why you get a certain color when breeding one color to another color.

Quote:
Also, is there some connotation in a registered dog's papers, so that it is part of their permanent record, so that we can choose more wisely when selecting a mate for a particular color outcome.
I can keep up with a bit of it on my program, but not much. It would be more up to the breeder to understand the color genetics so that they have a better idea of the genetic makeup of the dog that they are looking at. It will take a lot more breeders doing testing to make it worthwhile for me to keep up with it. Since we have 2 different blues and 2 different reds, then to really know what we have and want to produce, testing should be done.

_________________
Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Brenham
CAMO wrote:
Not to speak for Betty but that is what she means Chris. We see blues that have a red or brown tint we have seen that for a long time. Now we are seeing a lot of reds that are showing blue on them. We have also seen a few new color combinations .I am not sure if you have been keeping up with this thread but it is very intresting . Its a lot of info to take in.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

LOL, I guess you can say that. I am going to try and understand. I have alot of reading to do.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:45 pm 
Offline
NLDA Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:21 am
Posts: 2286
Location: Jarrell Texas
It is a lot to take in lol.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

_________________
"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"
- John Wooden


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Board index » Dr. Dog » Breeding & Genetics


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron