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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:33 pm 
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As I've learned more and more about bloodlines, I got really curious to see what was in Sadie's woodpile. Her aggression issues have never been purely environmental and I still struggle to keep her stable. So I was wondering if there was something in her pedigree, and the pedigree of other aggressive dogs, that pointed in the right direction.

As you can see, there are gaps starting at the third generation. If anyone has the names to fill it out the full six generations, let me know.

Also, you'll notice that the same name shows up on her third and fourth generation, which means they were on the sire's third and dam's second. I thought the registry banned that type of breeding. But they allowed it here and papered Sadie's entire litter. Interesting.

Image

If you want to generate your own online pedigree, you can go here: http://www.pedigreequery.com/generator/. Sadly php boards don't allow HTML inside posts. But if you do a screen shot and crop it down, you can get a copy. I went to print the frame and exported it to an image, which is a little more complicated.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Seems your dog is related to my dog in some way. I believe (don't have papers with me right now) that Maxmillion's Honey and the other dog is my dog's parents. Not sure. Will get back to you on that soon!


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:00 pm 
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I know whats wrong with her now......shes got peanut blood in her! ;)

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:17 pm 
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How old was the momma dog to your dog she must have been pretty old when she was bred? Maybe it was one of her parents or grandparents that was old when bred to still have wilkes blood show up. I have or excuse me had :(( a peanut gracie cross. He was a great dog. Thank for sharing the pedigree I enjoyed lookin. Darren


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:21 pm 
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Ted, yeah, I think Moonshine is Blue Angel's Maximillion x Blue Angel's Sweet Honey. Have you ever had any aggression issues with him? I know another case of dog aggression from that mix, and John Wayne was definitely crazy, but I've also seen dogs from those bloodlines that turned out OK.

I guess that's the crappy part about recessive genes. It is tough to predict when or why an issue pops up, especially something behavioral that has environmental components, but with the perfect storm it will.

Darren, I can't remember exactly how old Lady Bug was, but I don't think she was over three. I bet Sarge was the old one. I know he was bred right up until his last days. Which makes sense considering how many pedigrees he's in!

I've seen a couple papers with Wilkes in three generation, but if you go back to four or five generations, lots of his dogs show up. That man must have had hundreds of Lacys.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:42 pm 
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Julie,
I thought I had just posted this but it must have gotten lost in cyber space..Sadie is the great great great niece to my dogs. They are out of Respondek's Luke and Lucy. Haven't known of any of these pup's to have aggression problems..in fact they seem to very laid back. I'm just curious as to when the three generation rule was adopted--do you know?
REbecca


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Yeah, Sadie has some of those dogs from Jimmyland in her!!! J/K!

Rebecca,
Lucy has Respondeks Luke and Lucy too. They are her grandparents. She is extremely laid back, but was a handful when she was a pup. All of her pups seem to be good natured.

Betty

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Our dog M. Brooks Trapper has Wilkes' lines in his second and third generations as well as his fourth & fifth..I`ll have to put up what we have on him as I am also working on the further back generations..

When I was visiting with the Wilkes family today, I got some more names but have not figured out where they go yet..they are getting me more info. ;)

~Mis

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:00 pm 
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As long as I know the 3 generation rule has always been what was followed. I don't know why it is the rule, when you go to the other kennel clubs and read the breeding suggestions you don't see that. I am not an expert, but they do follow different rules and even tell you how to breed, line breed, cross breed, etc... so I am not sure how this rule came about.

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:35 pm 
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I'm not sure when that was adopted. I know some of the older dogs are line bred and had to be grandfathered in, so it couldn't have been that long ago.

And line breeding isn't a bad thing if you know about it and can make the appropriate breeding decisions to keep the line healthy. Of course when you only have three generation pedigrees, you don't know about it, because the general rule of thumb is an out cross has no shared relatives for six generations. Sadie is spayed, but what if she wasn't and I wanted to breed? It peeves me is that the breeder and the registry would have obviously known but didn't say a thing.

And Rebecca, from what I've seen, it would be the Blue Angel cross that is iffy, not the Respondek mix. But again, I've heard of other dogs out of that cross that are totally balanced and stable. That's why I'm really interested to see the rest of Winn's Lacy to figure out if anything back there raises a flag.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:39 pm 
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I don't either, but I do know this..without at the least a 7 generation pedigree..you can't call it random breeding. It is blind breeding at best.

I was looking at some pedigrees on a Lacys , they share a common name on the third gen and second gen, they were bred anyway and their offspring are registered (saw those papers too)..not sure how but they are.
Not that I see a problem with that happening, just couldn't understand why it is alright for some breeders to do that but not alright for others.

Thankfully, despite the Wilkes' never having the documents, videos and pictures they loaned out for copy returned to them, they still have somethings left.

Mrs. Wilkes has been ill and had to be hospitalized today so I ask for everyone to keep her in their prayers..she is a sweet lady and I know her daughter & granddaughter are concerned.

~Mis

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Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:47 pm 
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uhhh, uhhh, i aint going there..


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:34 am 
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I'm not trying to defend anyone but am trying to figure out this pedigree thing. Just how long have there been documented pedigrees on Lacys or did this depend on each particular breeder? It would make sense to me that if the registry was reopened recently and if you didn't have extended pedigrees to begin with or had gaps that you would not necessarily have a large pool of Lacy's to breed from. That's why I don't see the three generation rule even being applicable until there were enough dogs to have this information.
I'm not talking line breeding, inbreeding, etc I'm just talking pedigrees. The logic behind the articles on negatives of outcrossing makes sense to me but I have no breeder experience to really say yeah or nay on this particular subject.
Rebecca


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:20 am 
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Rebecca, to an owner a pedigree is nothing more than documentation as to who your dog's parents are (and grand parents) It's a pretty piece of paper showing your dog is pure bred. (Most the time anyways)

HOWEVER to a breeder, knowing the lineage of the dogs is important for making good healthy decisions for your breeding program. Just knowing 3 generations isn't knowing much at all..in order to truly make an educated pairing, 7 generations is desired. From that you can look at "shadows" and map out characteristic similarities, likes, dislikes, the list gets lengthy as to what all you can then take in to consideration.
ALL breeds are line bred & in bred...thats how you create a breed. By stating that because no common names show up on a dogs 3 generation pedigree that that dog is not line bred is false. What about the fourth generation? and the fifth? and so on?
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand the basics of genetics and to know that breeding based on 3 gen pedigrees is a recipe for disaster.

I do not see out crossing as a negative. I think if you have a dog that is line bred and showing all the traits you desired, and you stud that dog out to another solid line (line bred but without common ancestors to the stud for at the very least 7 generations) also showing all the traits you desired...that would be a viable out cross. But that would actually BE an out cross.

information on three gens just isn't enough , and in most every instance you are line breeding, be it loose or tight, it's line breeding.
Line breeding and even in-breeding have their place in breeding programs as science has proved. But you do have to really study the lines before you do so. It's not something you do blindly..which is exactly what you are doing if you're just going off a 3 generation pedigree.

~Mis

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Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:27 am 
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Sorry Rebecca I didn't address the actual question you asked..lol I went to venting.

There are papers dating back to the A.R.F. however there are just as many if not more lines that have not ever been registered (then & now).

If you read some of the articles published in the 40's about the breed, the owners only concern was whether or not the dog did it's job. And they were stingy with their lines when they did have jam up dogs..though I am certain that expression is a modern one..it still applies ! :)

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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