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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:05 am 
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That would be great, Julie. Whatever the two varieties of blue are, I think I have both of them. Aggie has a brown cast to her coat, while Piper is a darker blue with no brown cast. I really can't remember about their noses when they were little. I'll have to pull out some pictures.

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:23 pm 
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AmberLowMiddleton wrote:
That would be great, Julie. Whatever the two varieties of blue are, I think I have both of them. Aggie has a brown cast to her coat, while Piper is a darker blue with no brown cast. I really can't remember about their noses when they were little. I'll have to pull out some pictures.


The two variables of "blue" are actually blue and silver. Blue is the expression of dd on a black base coat while Silver is the expression of dd on a brown base coat (the lighter Weim color). Because of the varying levels of expression within each individual dog, they are very difficult to distinguish after pigmentation of the nose has darkened.

Thats why I asked about Larry, with his current nose color, he could be a blue with severe expression of dilute or he could be a silver with average expression of dilute. The only way to know would be to know the color of his nose when he was first born. I got interested in this because I thought that Jummy's recollection of gray dogs could have simply been a heavily expressed dilute on brown base coat.

The brown cast or tipped hair that you refer to is actually called banding. It is caused by a totally different allele all together. Incidentally, banding and saddleback coloration are VERY similar, controled by the same genetic trait which is mostly attributed to wolf DNA.

Steve

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Yes, a BB/dd blue and a bb/dd gray will look very similar. The nose leather and skin around the mouth and eyes is the main giveaway. And it is easier to tell it on puppies when the melanin is still developing. But they will likely have a slightly different sheen to their coat as well. It's not necessarily banding, but rather the blueish tint from the black or the brownish tint from the chocolate.

The banding comes into play when you have a dog whose coat is not uniformly one color. Like Sadie. You'll notice in many pictures that she has solid blue stripe down her back and a dark tail, but she is sort of lighter on the sides:
Image
It could be cause by a minor modifier, but it is so distinct that I think there is some sort of banding action going on. I'm still reading up on the theories to see which one is most likely in Lacys.

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:25 pm 
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This is exciting stuff, I want to learn more.

Where does this leave us in todays world with the lacy. Its being said that basically its just one jumbled line. How can this be corrected and how long will it take to correct it?

I would love to see an exploded view of the lacys world, kinda like the spider web of the austrailian shepherd. That would make more sense for me as I do not know alot about the dogs who are the major players in the last say 30 or 40 years.

If anyone is working on this or has info on this please start a thread or print it out so I can began to study it.

kevin

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:35 pm 
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Bluedog wrote:
I would love to see an exploded view of the lacys world, kinda like the spider web of the austrailian shepherd. That would make more sense for me as I do not know alot about the dogs who are the major players in the last say 30 or 40 years.


You and me both. I'm a picture book kind of guy when it comes to line chasing :)

Steve

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Steve,

Do you think something like a spider web is possible with the lacy?????

The bigger the picture the better I understand also

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:25 pm 
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Sure it can be, that is why everyone is sharing this information.

Like you I WILL have to put it on paper or in excel for visual benefit because Ill never remember more than 3 generations at a time.

If I had to guess, Id bet that is true for most and I know that at least two people are building pedigree matrix as we speak. Someone might share that with you personally but I doubt that you will see it posted publicly.

They are putting too much time and energy into their own line chasing efforts to have them show up elsewhere on the net, or claimed as an original work.....

Steve

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:26 pm 
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I certainly understand someone putting in the time and research for a spider web but once they do they should copyright it so it can be shared with everyone. It can only benefit the breed and thats what this is all about I thought. I certainly would not want someone to do all the work and someone else getting or taking the credit for such a work. Not only is it not right its unethical.

If the folks out there who are doing this work wouldnt mind sharing their efforts with me I would appreciate it. If you would like me to sign some sort of release as to protect your work till you do all the particulars to make it your own I would be glad to. I want to see who these dogs are and where they came from, not interested in the world of book signings. Enough of my pleadings, hope to see a big spider web sooner than later.

kevin

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:40 pm 
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I doubt that you will have an issue getting your hands on one when they are done.

I just don't think there will be a picture posted publicly.

Steve

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:49 pm 
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Thats good to hear, I'm like you very visual and remembering so many just will not happen with me. I think it will be great for the breed. So many folks have been told so much invalid information that something like this will certainly clear up alot of the folklore thats been spun.

Question, You said from what youve seen the lines look like a stump instead of a tree, how can that be fixed or is it getting to late. How will new lines be created?

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:58 pm 
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For one thing, none of them are complete, they are works in progress :)
Second, formatting one to share digitally is not exactly easy (varying programs and such) and certainly is not something that can be done on a forum without even more work being done. Has to be done one step at a time.

The Aussie "web" or "matrix" did not happen over night, nor will the Lacys...
It should be interesting though...

Oh and even a stump has potential for healthy growth and hope of becoming a big strong tree again...a little TLC and time :)

~Mis

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:08 pm 
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I don't think it is a copyright issue, just more of a practical one. As Steve said, a couple people are working on in-depth pedigree research, and several trusted breeders are already utilizing that information. But I don't think anything is developed to the point that it is suitable for public dissemination. Tracing lines can be a delicate undertaking, there are quite a few old timers that are wary of modern breed association, and their trust is highly valued. Plus there is always the matter of confirming findings and making sure all the data lines up.

But I'm sure things will eventually be publicized so the entire breed can benefit. It just takes time and hard work to get there. Once it is out there, a lot of people will try to twist it around to justify their own actions, so it needs to be as solid and twist-proof as possible.

And, as Mis just pointed out while I was typing, it won't be easy to turn into a visual format right away. I know everyone wants to make sure our stump is accurate and looks good ;) But fortunately there are some saplings growing out of the same root system if you look in the right places. Our tree metaphors are really on a roll tonight :)) It certainly is exciting to think about how the breed will evolve with proper care and management.

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- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:15 pm 
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Sorry, I dont understand. If they are growing out of the stump how will they be a different line from the others?

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:18 pm 
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Steve,

Sorry, but I dont know what color Larrys nose was the first week of his life. I do know that I picked him out because he had a beautiful coat. I know that some think that that's not a reason to pick a dog, but I picked out Larry when he was very young. I dont think that he even had his eyes open at that time. He was a dark grey with silver tipping on the ends. He was just gorgeous. I hadnt seen a coat like that before.

I will have to go back and look at my pups to see what color of noses they had. Ben was pretty dark and still is, but even as dark as he is, he still has that brownish tint in the sunlight.

I dont understand a lot of this stuff, but I am glad that someone does and can decipher it for me.

Betty

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:19 pm 
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even stumps have roots........I dont know what that means but it sounds good :))


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