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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:57 pm 
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Mis, you're right, many breeds can be blue. Claiming Lacys carry a "rare blue gene" is completely ridiculous. Blue dogs are genetically black with a color dilution modifier. Because we don't get black dogs any more, and dilution is recessive, it appears we've narrowed the gene pool to only dilute dogs. Yes, reds carry the same modifier, the effect just isn't as pronounced.

Though it isn't clear how they are connected, the color dilution gene is linked to alopecia. Those that are interested in how it applies specifically to Lacys should check out this post: http://workinglacys.wordpress.com/2009/ ... lue-lacys/. Though this color modifier can cause alopecia in all shades, it is far more prevelant in blue dogs. And the more blue on blue matings you have, the more that genetic issue is compounded. That is one reason I worry about the future health of the breed, because people started breeding for color, specifically for a color that has associated conditions, which will bite us in the rear one day. From the stories I've heard from people with balding blue Lacys, that day may get here sooner rather than later if breeders don't educate themselves on genetics.

So if you are working with a breed like pit bulls that have both dilute and non-dilute genes, the healthiest breeding for a dilute dog like Maya II is to a non-dilute. I don't think it would matter if the dog was black, brown or red, just as long as it undiluted. You would want to avoid blues, fawns and creams. And if you really want to be cautious, you would want the undiluted sire to have undiluted parents as well. Breeding to dilute doesn't necessarily create an issue, but it does open the door for one to pop up.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:18 pm 
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Mis/Julie,

This "scientfic" breeding is going to be hard to take for alot of breeders. New way of doing things. I hope yall do follow and get others to do it as well. It has got to be the better way.I am far from understanding it. the purpose of breeding to make a dog that is better then before. Right?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:12 am 
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MisB wrote:
We have looked at genetic probabilities in color variation based on color pairing. Now I want to explore what would be healthier based on color pairing.
ANY input and/or questions are welcome as well as encouraged!

http://www.dermvet.com/

~Mis


The healthiest color pairing in working dogs, when breeding to maintain or improve working traits is the ignorance of color all together. By ignoring color, you can focus on the expressed traits that promote catching pigs, blood trailing, herding cattle, etc.

Unfortunately, as Julie pointed out, we are now in a situation where our genetic base has been paired down to include only dogs carrying the color dilution modifier. This makes things difficult because we can NOT ignore color for fear of alopecia......

Personally, I am looking for the darkest dogs that I can find, old lines that didn't focus on breeding blue dogs, and introducing them into my breeding program (likely bred to red dogs) in hopes of reducing the overall expression of dilution with my progeny. The ultimate success would be to throw some black or almost black coats.

I don't know if that is possible but if it happened, it would be a healthy genetic base to begin a line off of, focused on the expression of working traits.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:18 pm 
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I agree with Steve on the fact that if a dog does what it's suposed to do you shouldn't care what color it is. But that doesn't mean I'm aposed to breeding for a spacific color or prefering a certant color.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:43 am 
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I'm just wondering when the cream colored Lacys started showing up? I've looked on some of the posts and didnt find it.

A really interesting experiment, so to speak, would be to take into consideration the food that a dog consumes over the years, not just the colors of the dog that are bred. With Steve, Mike and Mis, and others raw feeding and breeding, it could, over the years, be done. Nothing scientific, just observation. I'm not saying for anyone to do this, just speculating.

I realize that the diluted blue gene has been around a long time. Along with the diluted blue, we know that we get alopecia. In the article that I posted on another thread, we know that nutritional deficiencies can affect the color and the quality of hair. Man-made dog food has been around since the late 40's, I believe. I know it hit big time in the 50's. I suspect that many families like mine didnt start using dog food until the 60's or so. Up until then, my dogs ate scraps from our table. So, what I am saying is that with generations of dogs being fed a poorly constructed diet, genetic damage has been done. If the genes have been damaged by poor diet, then it should stand to reason that it could be corrected with a proper diet.

If you want to get away from the dilution gene, I think that the quickest way to do it would be to feed the correct diet and as Steve said, ignore color when breeding. We know that over the years the dog food manufacturers have found things that were missing in the food and they have had to add supplements to what they were doing. To this day, they add things that science is finding that human and animal bodies need. So, those of you who are interested in breeding away from the color dilution gene, you cant ignore the diet that your dogs are fed.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:48 pm 
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All genes are subject to change. It will not happen over night, but it is known that vaccines AND diet change genetic code. A dog that is left to fend for themselves such as the Canaan dog and other ancient dogs have all changed their genetic code. If the Lacy dog was left to survive by its self, they would all eventually change to get pointy ears. They would all be about the same size and the colors would all eventually be about the same. Evolution has shown us that. They would also all eat the same thing.

If the color of red dogs is dependent on copper for its color, where do you think the copper comes from? The genes dont produce the copper. The genes cannot put copper in there if there isnt copper in that dogs diet. The genes dictate the color, but they cant put it there without the stuff to work with.

NOTHING in our world that eats or drinks can function they same way, generation after generation depending on an inadequate diet. It will begin to mutate to survive.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Betty, I may have read that post wrong, but I interpreted the study to mean that the density and distribution of the melanin was effect by nutrition, not the actual base genetics (red, blue, black, etc). Color genes in each puppy works as an on/off relationship, so either the the embryo gets the gene or it doesn't. So you can't turn a red dog to a blue dog, or even a blue dog to a black dog, once the cells have split. But poor and improper nutrition probably has an effect on the intensity of the color and health of the coat. In a breed that has a color associated with alopecia, prenatal nutrition should be a vital consideration in an effort to protect against such issues, and that attention to diet needs to continue through the dog's life.

And any dog with the dd dilution gene, which is every Lacy at this point, is at risk for alopecia. But that risk is incredibly low for red dogs. Dobermans a perfect example, alopecia will occasionally appear in dilute reds, but it so prevalent in dilute blues that the nickname for color dilution alopecia is blue Doberman syndrome. I've never heard of a red Lacy with this coat problem, but I've heard of several blue Lacys with alopecia. Tris are at risk as well, but we've probably heard less about it because there are currently fewer tris out there.

My guess is that it's related to black hair follicular dysplasia. That issue is very similar to color dilution alopecia but occurs in a black dogs of certain breeds. Since black is the base color for blue dogs, I bet there is a connection, though I haven't found a study on it yet. It also explains why brown dilutes, like Weimeraners, don't have issues with alopecia. We do have that variety in Lacys, they are the dogs with liver/brown noses instead of blue/black noses, and that is another thing to take into consideration when breeding. Just as a red dog is at a reduced risk for coat issues, so is a brown-based dog.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:18 pm 
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Oh yeah, and creams...

Just like blues are diluted blacks, creams are essentially diluted reds. Yes, the dd gene is carried by all Lacys, which is why our reds are more yellow than fox red. But it does not have the same intense effect on pheomelanin as it does on eumelanin.

However the opposite occurs with the C locus. Though it has a subtle effect on eumelanin, chch has a strong dilution effect on pheomelanin. That is what turns a red dog into a cream dog.

And while dd is carried by all Lacys, it appears chch is not in every line, probably because people haven't tried to breed for it like they have for blues. It also requires two sets of recessive genes, ee and chch, which makes it even more rare. But mix the right lines and it will occasionally pop up.

Unlike the dd in BB dogs, chch does not appear to have any related health issues.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:42 pm 
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OK, I havent spent hours researching genetics. I havent spent hours researching nutrition. But, I know what I know and genes do change.

All I said was that it would be interesting to see if the long term effect of a proper diet would make a difference. I believe that it would.

I still hold by the premise that without copper in the diet, you cant have copper in the hair. I know nothing about how the copper gets to the hair, but it has to be in the diet for it to appear in the hair. If you two know how genetics make the copper get into the hair, fine. All I know is that the more copper in hair, the redder it is.

I wont argue whether a ddxx ee produces a black and purple dog. I'm not arguing that genetics cause colors. All I am saying is that you cant go purely by the genes to determine disease. You have to understand that disease starts somewhere. It doesnt just take 2 recessive genes and all of a sudden you have alopecia or hip dysplasia. Something went wrong to cause those recessive genes to produce a disease.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:49 pm 
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Quote:
As for a good diet..that is important to all living things and helps the body operate as it was intended. That is true. It can even help prevent mutation of otherwise healthy genes. Unfortunately it can not fix a bad gene.


And, what do you base that on?

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:36 am 
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Mis,

I KNOW that diet will not change the modified gene in the animal that is expressing the bad gene. What you said was that you couldnt fix a bad gene. You didnt specify a bad gene that someone had in their body, or one that is being worked on. Of course, you can change genes. Its done all the time.

What I am and have been talking about is working to fix the problem that caused the gene to mutate in the first place. What I am talking about that you dont seem to grasp is that if you took a group of dogs with dilution problems and bred them, bred them as you, Julie and Steve have been talking about, added in the proper diet, perhaps you could reverse the problem even faster than just breeding alone. That is all that I have been talking about from the start.

I dont want to get into autism. This is not the place for it. I know a bucket load about vaccines and austism, ADD, ADHD, brain damage, convulsions, death, etc. etc. I know about allergies and diet, I know about ADD and diet. I know that what works for one child may not work for another. That, I have read about for years. I have friends who work in that field.

As far as scientific studies, I dont know that studies have been done to correct gene damage alone by diet. Maybe you do. If long term studies have been done on correcting gene damage by diet alone and it failed, then I would like to see it. If you know of a study like that, please post it. Otherwise, all scientific studies that have been done to correct genes have nothing to do with what I am talking about.

Genetic research is a huge field of study. They do not know all that is to be known about genes and what all influences them. Science continues to learn daily about things that were totally unknown, even a year or two ago. They continue to find new vitamins, co-vitamins, co-enzymes. They continue to learn what those nutrients do in the animal body. Until all is known about nutrition and genes, I still hold to my original statement, you cant separate nutrition and genetics. You cant ever ignore what nutrition does inside the body, because without nutrition, you aint got a body.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:09 pm 
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The idea that diet and genes interact is well accepted by researchers. The Center of Excellence for Nutritional Genomics at UC-Davis has done some really interesting work, http://nutrigenomics.ucdavis.edu/. Here is their description of the tenets of nutrogenomics:

"Nutritional genomics, or nutrigenomics, is the study of how foods affect our genes and how individual genetic differences can affect the way we respond to nutrients (and other naturally occurring compounds) in the foods we eat. Nutrigenomics has received much attention recently because of its potential for preventing, mitigating, or treating chronic disease, and certain cancers, through small but highly informative dietary changes. The conceptual basis for this new branch of genomic research can best be summarized by the following five tenets of nutrigenomics:

* Under certain circumstances and in some individuals, diet can be a serious risk factor for a number of diseases.

* Common dietary chemicals can act on the human genome, either directly or indirectly, to alter gene expression or structure.

* The degree to which diet influences the balance between healthy and disease states may depend on an individual’s genetic makeup.

* Some diet-regulated genes (and their normal, common variants) are likely to play a role in the onset, incidence, progression, and/or severity of chronic diseases.

* Dietary intervention based on knowledge of nutritional requirement, nutritional status, and genotype (i.e., "personalized nutrition") can be used to prevent, mitigate or cure chronic disease.

The promise of nutritional genomics is personalized medicine and health based upon an understanding of our nutritional needs, nutritional and health status, and our genotype. Nutrigenomics will also have impacts on society – from medicine to agricultural and dietary practices to social and public policies – and its applications are likely to exceed that of even the human genome project. Chronic diseases (and some types of cancer) may be preventable, or at least delayed, by balanced, sensible diets. Knowledge gained from comparing diet/gene interactions in different populations may provide information needed to address the larger problem of global malnutrition and disease."

I think we all understand this, but just in case people are following along that haven't pulled together the various threads being discussed... Can diet physically switch a gene that already exists? No. I could feed Sadie all the copper in the world and her coat would genetically be blue. Does diet have a huge impact on how a genetic disorder is expressed? Most certainly, and there are several papers and studies on the UC Davis site about it. And that is especially important to consider with a disorder like alopecia, which is not purely genetic, merely linked to specific sets of color genes. So breeders should carefully consider pedigrees and sound genetic principles as well as nutrition to ensure the healthiest litters and the best future for the breed.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:09 am 
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It is good to know that there is a term for the study of nutrition and genetics. I think that it would be an amazing field of study!

Perhaps it would have been better if I had posted my thoughts on the forum for nutrition instead of genetics. From now on, I will try to be more thoughtful about what I am posting on. I never intended to 'hi-jack' this thread or to turn it away from the fact that genes are important and that breeders have to take them into consideration if they are interested in preserving the quality of the breed.


Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Blues..
 Post Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Actually Mrs. Betty, as Julie pointed out, there is a place for nutrition & diet in genetics just unfortunately it won't solve the problem I was looking into.
I wish it were that simple though...

I am concerned about what will happen if we continue to breed blue on blue.
Could there be ramifications? Is there a healthier way?
I,like most breeders of Lacy Dogs, never gave that much thought until the last year and a half or so with the rise in alopecia awareness
as well as being educated on some other possible problems related to the dilute allele.

Now I`m giving it a lot of thought. Our kennels have not experienced alopecia yet, YET being the operative word. It seems that on the path we are on it would be almost inevitable for alopecia to rear it's ugly little head.

~Mis

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