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 Post subject: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:50 pm 
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There is an unfortunate event going on..the Lacy Dog is being slammed in the world of working breeds. Why you ask? Because of breeders who have inadvertently bred mediocre dogs from less than favorable lines. More and more breeders are breeding for "pet quality"
and in doing so continue to advertise them as working dogs as well.
By advertising them one way and breeding them another, what is happening is buyers truly looking for a working dog are getting duped into thinking that ALL Lacy lines are created equal. They are not. Period no argument, end of discussion.

If you are looking for a working line there are some things you should know.

First if the breeder states that they have "Champion lines" there is no such thing. There are not sanctioned events for the Lacy breed. There are play days here and there but none sanctioned or governed by the rules & regulations of real championship competition. Albeit there are Lacys that have won events at these play days and that is neat, it by no means guarantees the dog is of superior quality or that their offspring will be either.
There are professional Bay Pen events and a Lacy holding wins in those has more than proved it's self.

Second > if the bitch & sire do not work and there is not proof of said work then their is no guarantee of the quality of work drive.

Once upon a time finding a good working Lacy was a simple task..those days are long gone. At some point people started mass producing for novelty & color with no attention being paid to what that would do to the over all instincts & drive of the breed as a whole.

There are breeders out there breeding quality working lines so finding a good sound working dog is not impossible.

Before you buy a Lacy see the parents, watch them work, ask for references for homes where that Sire & Dam have offspring that are working. Talk to people who have had experience with those lines.
Never buy because of convenience or color...it may very well bite you in the butt both figuratively and literally. Choosing a working companion is an important decision and should not be rushed in to or approached lightly.

Lacy Dogs are a hard working breed and it is a crying shame that not all breeders see the bigger picture or how they are hurting the breed by not breeding for the best WORKING lines. As breeders our goals should be to improve the breed as a whole as well as improve your own personal lines. It should not ever be about money, color or population.

~Mis

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:10 am 
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Well said, Mis. You can't stress enough that if you want a working Lacy, you should get a puppy from working parents! In the past, a buyer didn't even have to ask if a Lacy was a working dog. Now, it's imperative.

Another tip for puppy buyers: A good breeder should be happy to answer any of your questions, even if the answers weren't what you were hoping for. If a breeder shys away from questions, or you feel like they're just telling you what you want to hear, MOVE ON! There are many Lacy owners who breed good working lines, so don't settle for less.

Lastly, PLEASE don't judge the breed by one dog. Many people have been turned off of Lacys in general because their buddy got one that won't hunt, track, etc. Chances are, the buddy bought his Lacy from a "pet home" without doing his research first.

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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:03 am 
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Such good points Mis and Amber.

It is so sad to hear from people who buy their pup to do a job, invest a year in training them, and can never get them to turn on. But when you buy from people breeding pets, or people who claim to work their dogs but really don't, that's what happens. There seems to be this pervasive myth that all Lacys will work. And while that may have been true in the past, when the only people breeding Lacys were ranchers, hunters and trappers who didn't keep a dog unless it helped them do a job, now people think papers entitle them to breed. And like so many hunting and herding breeds that have been diluted by people striving for show ring conformation to the exclusion of working ability, the Lacy is being diluted by people striving for pretty colors. Or, even worse, striving for nothing. Producing more dogs is never the answer, producing better dogs should be the goal.

So what do you guys think prospective buyers should ask a breeder before they buy? Amber is right that a good breeder will never shirk from an answer. They'll tell you the truth and give you details. But I'd like to get a collection of good questions for people to ask. Here a few I thought of...

1.) What do the parents do? How long have they been working and often do they work? What is their hunting/herding/tracking/etc style? (They should be able to give you details.)

2.) Can I see pictures or, even better, video of the dogs on the job? (Unless you want a dog for bay pen competitions, a dog barking at a pig in a pen isn't sufficient proof for a hog dog. If you want a herding dog, a dog barking at a cow through a fence isn't sufficient proof. There should be pictures of the parents working in a real situation, not an artificial environment.)

3.) How have other puppies from these parents turned out? On average, how many make it as working dogs? How is the best one doing? How is the worst one doing? (If they haven't kept close track of the litters, that is a huge red flag. Of course some buyers fall out of touch or don't follow through on their promises, but they should know what most of their dogs are doing.)

4.) How many litters do you plan to have this year? How many litters did you have last year? (If the parents are good, you can always take a chance on a first time breeder. If the breeder has several litters a year, be wary, that is a good indication they are in it for money rather than improving the breed.)

5.) Why do you breed Lacys? (If you are looking for a working dog, the answer should be because they want to create a better working dog. Saying the breed is so unique/interesting/rare/whatever are not a good enough answer for a working home.)

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:12 am 
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Simple question I have started to ask when calling about pups. How many pups are you keeping out of the litter? Plan and simple. If they say one or none. Then I am done with the call. Breed to improve the dog. Always room for improvement unless it is an age old line. If the breeder is not breeding for themselves(the reason to keep multiple pups) then why do I want one?


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:28 am 
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Julie N wrote:
2.) Can I see pictures or, even better, video of the dogs on the job? (Unless you want a dog for bay pen competitions, a dog barking at a pig in a pen isn't sufficient proof for a hog dog. If you want a herding dog, a dog barking at a cow through a fence isn't sufficient proof. There should be pictures of the parents working in a real situation, not an artificial environment.)

3.) How have other puppies from these parents turned out? On average, how many make it as working dogs? How is the best one doing? How is the worst one doing? (If they haven't kept close track of the litters, that is a huge red flag. Of course some buyers fall out of touch or don't follow through on their promises, but they should know what most of their dogs are doing.)


1) Personally, I would encourage any buyer to actually witness the parents performing their job. I for one have no issue with taking a buyer hog hunting(because thats what my dogs do) if said buyer is serious enough to request such, and assuming that a deposit has been placed. Dont get me wrong, I'm not taking everyone interested in a pup hunting, but if they are that serious, looking for a hog dog, Ill certainly respect that.

2) Dont just ask about the shadows, get names and phone #s, call the shadows owners and interview the blood line. The #1 way to judge the potential of a litter is by comparing its parents and shadows accomplishments, NOT ITS ANCESTORS! Look at the future, not the past.

Steve

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Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:17 pm 
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Question.....a dog baying a pig in a pen is proven or is not proven. Listed above states both.

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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Since you specifically asked about pigs, I'm basing this off what the typical hog hunter would look for.

A dog barking at a pig in a trap, trailer or other enclosure doesn't prove much. Any breed of dog can do that, and it certainly doesn't mean they'd be able to work a loose pig.

A dog that can control a good sized hog in a large pen with incredible intensity and unwavering focus could be called a bay pen dog. If they have gone to multiple open bay competitions in different locations with different judges and win, you can consider them a proven bay pen dog.

A dog that can roll out, pick up a track, find a hog and bay it up is what most people call a hog dog. If that dog can do it over and over again for a significant period of time, you could consider them a proven hog dog. If they consistently and continuously find a pig first, you could consider them a proven strike dog.

A woods dog should be able to work a pig anywhere, in the wild or in a pen. But it's important to remember that even a proven bay pen dog won't necessarily hunt. And an adult dog barking at a caged animal just proves the dog has vocal chords.

_________________
"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:28 pm 
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Bluedog wrote:
Question.....a dog baying a pig in a pen is proven or is not proven. Listed above states both.


A dog baying a pig in a pen is proven to bay a pig in a pen. You could call that a proved BAY PEN DOG........ Baying a pig in a pen does not prove a HOG DOG because baying in a pen does not prove its ability as a hunter.

Steve

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Pigs evolved with ears so that my dogs would have a handle.

Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

16, intelligent and articulate, I'm a fan!


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Or..... I could have read the thread in its entirety and seen that Julie fashioned a much more eloquent response.

Steve

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Pigs evolved with ears so that my dogs would have a handle.

Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

16, intelligent and articulate, I'm a fan!


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Steve you just answered with less words is all... ;)

Anyway you cut & paste it it's pretty black & white Kevin :)

Speaking of Bay Pen competitions..those are legitimate forms of competition. If a breeder shows you proof of winning or placing in Bay Comps. and can show that their were adequate participants..that means something IF your looking for a pup for bay competition purposes. Lacys actually excel in this field and there is a growing interest in Bay Pen Dogs.

We don't work our dogs that way but we have held a Bay Comp. and been to observe others.

~Mis

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M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:58 pm 
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I am by NO means an expert BUT I can add a little something here. My first Lacy was from a rancher in So. Texas who advertised a litter in the newspaper. His dogs weren't registered and this was their first litter. He had a ranch outside town where he ran some cattle. Both were 'found' dogs where the owners never turned up.

But he could tell stories of his dogs working, how intelligent they were, how they did on the ranch & taking charge of the cattle, etc. We talked for over 3 hours one night about his dogs. When I went to get the puppy, I saw both parents & they were fine, healthy looking dogs. I stayed at their house over 2 hours just deciding which pup I wanted!

Bottom line is he was willing to talk about his dogs, tell me everything he knew, let me take my time with the pups, etc. I only had Chula 2 months before someone stole her (or she got out & someone took her even though she had an ID tag on) but I have never forgotten her. Until Ranger, she was the smartest dog I ever had.

So.... I think a good breeder should take their time and be glad to answer ALL your questions -- not just rush you through the sale. And a good breeder SHOULD ask you questions too -- about your plans for the pup, your lifestyle, etc. And they should be able to tell you stories illustrating their dog(s)' intelligence & character.

Just my $0.02 worth.


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:36 pm 
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Talk is CHEAP. I can go on and on about my lab being worthy of breeding, when in reality she is your basic run of the mill coonass trained lab. She gets my birds, thats all I want. I doubt she would be able to run 400yd blinds on multiple marks. Talk is just that, talk. If you want a serious go out and find me some hog dogs then find the breeder who has them. A one time breeding,cross this good one with that good one, doesnt past the test of time. Breeding one good dog to another good dog doesnt is useless. Why breed for more good dogs, I would think the purpose is GREAT dogs. Remember, Anyone can talk shop.


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:56 pm 
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Thats why documenting your Studs and Bitches accomplishments and working ability is important for a breeder. Because you are correct, a person trying to sell a pup can say anything.
On the same note you have buyers who will promise to train, work & take care of a pup as a working breed should be cared for that really aren't as dedicated as they would like for you to think they are.

That is something else that can damage the breeds reputation as a solid working breed...placing pups in the wrong homes or "pet" homes. If they are driven hard working lines then they will most likely be more than a pet home can handle. Then you have a disaster on your hands PLUS you have a damn good dog that goes to waste.
Of course if the parents don't work and the breeder is not breeding for prey drive and work ethic then chances are you have nothing to worry about as a pet owner..it just diminishes the Lacy as a contender in the working canine world.

~Mis

_________________
M.D.Brooks Founding Member & Breeders Committee Chair
Bayed Blue...Bayed True...That's A Lacy Dog
If You can't keep up with the Lacy Dog...stay on the porch!
http://www.nationallacydog.org/index.html
http://www.lacyhuntingdogs.bravehost.com


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 Post subject: Re: Destroying A Name
 Post Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:50 am 
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You know I sold a pup to a couple who did not "work" but they were very outdoors people. Hiking, camping, jogging etc... They had a huge list of questions; they came to my house several times, we talked on the phone and via email. Well i don't make breeding a habit and I knew what a high drive my female had along with the male; so I explained until I was blue in the face what they were getting into; needless to say they asked all the right quetions and so did I. When I got the dog back OMG!!! He was the worst thing I had seen; no manors, you couldn't control him. All I could say is no wonder why they didn't want him! They did not listen to a thing I said nor did they do a thing they said they were going to do. I along with some help found him a good hunting home and he has turned out to be a good dog. So to agree with Mike- talk can be very cheap, some people will just tell you what you want to hear. Because had these people just listened to what I said they would of realized that this was not the dog for them. By the way the excuse I got when I got him back was her allergies were bad; didn't she know this before she took the dog? If her allergies were so bad why didn't he come home with a crate, leash or collar? The bottom line is he didn't get any exercise or discipline and he was out of control and it took alot of work to make him managable.

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