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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Of all the Lacys I have gone through (alot) seen and hunted with I can say I have one good female. She has great temperment, good nose, drive, and conformation. One thing I think she lacks is bottom. This may be a confidence issue at this time. I have one good male, Digger but he has one bad trait other than being to large for this organization, he is agresive, with dogs and with humans if he dont like you. Could this be because he was not brought up the right way? I adopted him him at 1.5 and he was a trouble dog, but he has everything else I would want in a dog. So if anyone has the right dog to breed to Ash she is available.

Jerryg


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Your exactly right, Jerry. I have been searching for 4 months to find the perfect stud for Lucy and I am no closer today than I was on day one because I refuse to compromise. As a point of interest, she is not yet proved in my book but she has shown me enough that I KNOW she will be a sure enough Lacy dog by the time I am ready to breed at 2 years old.

Anyway, random breeding has never been the plan of this association, that's not how you produce the quality we are striving for. In fact, the result of random breeding practices are exactly what we are dedicated to rectifying.

I just posted a thread in breeding and genetics about line-breeding. It is well written in layman terms and touches very briefly on the benefit of individual lines within the breed; increasing genetic diversity of the breed as a whole.

All of that being said though, breeding decisions are ultimately that of the breeder and what they feel best promotes the goals of this association as well as their own.

How big is Twister getting? If he stays within standard sans his daddy's aggression issues, you might take him back to his mother to start your own line or we could always find one of the half siblings or cousins who show extraordinary talent.

Steve

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:21 pm 
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One other thing that a very well respected breeder of BMC said, I am posting in my words because i dont remember his exact words.

If you have to bring in other breeds to your line of dogs to add nose, drive or bottom then your line of dogs are not very good to begin with.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:28 pm 
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A quote that I agree with except for the fact that all standardized breeds started out as mutts, mixing a little nose here and a little grit there until such time as the perfect mix was found. Then line breeding was implemented to "fix" those traits in a "breed".

In my mind that adding this or that isn't an attempt to improve a breed, its the creation of a whole new breed. Like the ones that I am breeding or Roy's dogs represent a more mature example; a standardized type, a breed all its own, known only by the breeders name.......

Steve

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Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:32 pm 
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Mother to son? Don't get carried away and give the wrong impression of what's going on! Personally, I don't want to sew inbreeding of dogs that have been so randomly bred for the past couple generations, and I think you'll have a hard time getting the majority of people to agree otherwise. Genetically, looser linebreeding would be a more prudent approach, helping to achieve some of the same goals over time without the increased risk. But that would require breeders put in even more effort in to carefully plan such crosses. Sadie is linebred, she has Sarge on her third and fourth generation (and yes, she is registered and one of her sisters has had two registered litters). But I don't think that was on purpose to set a certain trait, I think that was out of convenience. Linebreeding is supposed to be a way to improve the breed, not a lazy loophole, so it's a subject that needs to be thoroughly debated.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:50 pm 
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no....


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:59 pm 
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jerryg wrote:
no....


There were so many things to say no to in that tirade... so I'll just assume you were saying no to Steve ;)

And for everyone else, I added a post about the Hortayas mentioned in Steve's article to the Breeding & Genetics section. They are a fascinating example of what happens when you only breed proven working stock.

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- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

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More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:05 pm 
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Julie N wrote:
Linebreeding is supposed to be a way to improve the breed, not a lazy loophole,


That's correct, line breeding is a tool used to achieve a goal not to be abused for convenience.

When I first became involved with Lacy dogs, I was an opponent of line-breeding and in-breeding because I was assured that the young breeds traits had been set and maintained within a small gene pool by dedicated breeders. It didn't take long to figure out that this was not true. With glaring examples like lines with size and temperament issues, inconsistency within each litter and dogs being bred so randomly that not all pups even had the drive to hunt, it became apparent quickly that there were no lines within the breed, that genetic diversity within the breed was zero and that its original traits though not lost were being compromised severely.

If the breed had been maintained as was promoted to me, I would probably still use a loose line breeding rule of three generations but as it stands currently, Jimmy is the only one out there with a true "line". The way to reestablish the virtue of the Lacy dog is through line breeding the best of the best, developing lines and increasing genetic diversity of the breed as a whole while culling undesired traits along the way.

So far as in-breeding is concerned, its a drastic measure, yes. But again it is a tool. One that is not to be used often or for extended periods of time but used properly, it can create the genetically similar extended pedigree that line-breeding is based on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that in-breeding is applicable in every instance and I'm sure as hell not suggesting that everyone go out and do it. Its a specific tool used to achieve a specific goal with heavy consequences for misuse. That being said, its just like any other tool, easily abused.......

Steve

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Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

16, intelligent and articulate, I'm a fan!


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:44 pm 
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SteveW wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that in-breeding is applicable in every instance and I'm sure as hell not suggesting that everyone go out and do it. Its a specific tool used to achieve a specific goal with heavy consequences for misuse. That being said, its just like any other tool, easily abused.......


Well, to make an analogy to a tool, I'd say inbreeding that close is similar to a very sharp knife. You can do a lot of amazing things with it. Heck, you can perform life-saving surgery with it. But you can also do a lot of harm. Even if you intend to use it with the best intentions, mistakes happen, especially if you don't have enough education to know exactly what you're doing.

As your article pointed out, exposing genetic flaws can actually be a good thing. But you better be tracking every dog from every litter and enforcing puppy contracts and holding some back for yourself etc etc to make sure you handle it properly. It is a huge commitment when done properly.

So I'm not saying inbreeding is wrong, I'm saying there is risk and it is difficult. Slightly looser linebreeding could still be very beneficial. You are reducing the risk, and it takes longer to achieve the end goal, but you can still make a lot of progress. Especially given the point we are at. You are right, Jimmy is the only person that I've seen succeed at creating a true line, and such a widespread lack of consistency is not a good position for the breed to be in.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:46 pm 
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In the old days it was probably alot easier to determine which dogs had the better traits and then individuals would breed their best dogs to produce better dogs. Why? These dogs were part of everyday life, they were a necessity; utilized to hunt, herd, track, not only hogs but cows. Now in todays world we get meat at the local supermarket, hell some of us dont eaven eat meat :-o ...so it is more difficult to determine which dogs possess the traits we are looking for, especially as weekend hunters. Just like the BMCs, we hunt a few and one is a good dog and I know that if she is barking she is looking at a hog, this dog will not trash, has a great nose, but has no drive to go and find a hog, then we have a line bred dog that hunts, has the drive, nose, bottom, etc and is a better dog at 1 year old than the good dog at 3 yrs old. Genetics. Talking to Mr. Mason a few months ago, he said he has alot of BMC come for training and their is a big difference in WB BMC's, a very high percentage of those dogs make great dogs. I think there is a tough road ahead of us....but it can be done with the proper individuals...

Jerryg


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:02 am 
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Quote:
But you better be tracking every dog from every litter and enforcing puppy contracts and holding some back for yourself etc etc to make sure you handle it properly. It is a huge commitment when done properly.


Isn't that what a responsible breeder should be doing with EVERY litter, not just in-bred or tightly line-bred litters?

In-breeding & line-breeding tends to freak people out especially if they have limited canine genetics knowledge and are newer to the breeding world. I`ve posted several links for basic genetics and tried to find some truly layman examples so that it seems less confusing and/or intimidating. I know Julie & Steve have posted their fair share of links and explanations as well..I encourage everyone to take the time and read them. If nothing else the information could help someone figure out how to better ask a question they have.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:29 am 
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Jerry you should know as well as every other person who hunts behind dogs that yes there are dogs that don't trash often BUT there is no such thing as a fully trash broke dog. They will all trash at some point it's in their nature to chase stuff and if they feel like it they'll do it.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:12 am 
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Good point, Mis. I missed that one.

Just as a point of interest, the ONE good female Lacy that Jerry owns is line-bred. She is the product of the Lucifer X Secret breeding in which, out of a 20+ dog kennel, the Brooks and I but the best non-sibling stud we had over the best bitch we had. They shared common names in the second and third generation, making them second cousins. Not all of the pups turned out but over 50% of them turned out just like their momma and no one could ask for any better than that.

Steve

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Pigs evolved with ears so that my dogs would have a handle.

Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

16, intelligent and articulate, I'm a fan!


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:23 am 
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Trashing was used to describe a dog we have has nothing to do with the hunt in this particular dog. I use the term loosly but mean cows, deer, javies and horses in my neck of the woods. She might chase a coon, rabbit, yote but wont bark.
When we run pups on the ground she is close by in the box, when they strike something it the woods we let her go, if she comes back with the "O shit" look on her face the pups are trashing and they get educated. She has her place, but it has nothing to do with genetics, had to do with a collar that showed her it was wrong....I take that back maybe it does have to do with genetics because she learned quick what not to do so she has some brains that came from somewhere. What she lacks is the drive to go and find her hogs where there is minimul sign. You can drop her at a feeder or pond and she is gone, but road her where there is no sign and she will jsut stay by the truck. Drive over a fresh track and boom..gone. The only thing she has trashed on in the past two years was a coon that was bayed by another dog, but that was a year ago.
She has never hunted how the young dog is hunting now. At less than 1 year old he was showing some incredible qualities. Yes he trashes but right now its ok and this trashing for cows, javies and hogs has decreased since he has figured out that we dont go to him when he dosent bark at pigs. This in a span of 3 months. The last hunt he worked through a group of cows and just stopped looked at us and kept going down the road.....dont want to get off topic again so carry on...

Jerryg


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:38 am 
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So what I am trying to say without babbaling is that this particular line of BMC is line bred to bring out the qualities of one particular excellent male (Weatherfords Ben) and by doing this properly these individual breeders are constantly producing quality dogs with incredible traits. If Iwas going to buy a BMC I would go to these individuals because my odds of getting a better dog are greater.

These guys have been doing this over 50 years. We have a long road ahead of us whether we use this practice or not, but it would be great to start seeing more consistant Lacy working dogs that excel in whatever task is put before them. There are a lot of good Lacy dogs but not alot of great Lacy dogs. JMO


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