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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:46 am 
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I agree fully with everything in your last post.

Steve

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:29 am 
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Let me throw another one out there...

How long do you give your young dogs to show you what they have?

Some have spent alot of time and money on dogs, vet bills, breeding, etc but when do you say, ok, this dog is not meeting my expectations. Are you willing to let go of the dog or do you keep trying to make it work? 1 year, 2 years, 3 years?

There are 2 dogs in our pack that I wish I could cull but they are not my dogs..... :ymdaydream: maybe I should cull the person that owns the dogs...may be easier :-BD

Jerryg


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:40 am 
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I think it depends on both age and ability, kinda like a ratio. I have no problem culling a 6 month old pup if it has had ample opportunity and will not bark at a shoat, or a one year old dog who stays under your feet and shows no curiosity or interest in hunting.

I think it all depends on how much opportunity you give them and if they take that opportunity and run with it or if they show little or no interest. A dogs drive comes from its breeding, its not taught to them. I have no issue with cutting one loose quick if its not showing what I need to see.

Steve

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Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:27 am 
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Mis, to go back to your point about all breeders acting that way, I agree! If we can get all of our breeders to do that, we'll be looking good.

And Jerry, I'm sure you could get him neutered and placed in a nice pet home in no time ;)

My biggest question would be whether or not we have a couple Lacys that exists today who are of Weatherford Ben's quality. Obviously, all I know it the myth of that dog, but what I've heard makes him sound like a freak of nature. To truly justify starting a line like that and breeding so heavily within that line, you need the foundation. And you also need to develop a couple of those lines to keep things genetically copacetic. Do we have that or is there more work to do before we get those dogs?

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:41 am 
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Julie,
If I have Andy neutered and placed in a pet home I think his fiance would be upset!!!


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:54 am 
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"My biggest question would be whether or not we have a couple Lacys that exists today who are of Weatherford Ben's quality. Obviously, all I know it the myth of that dog, but what I've heard makes him sound like a freak of nature. To truly justify starting a line like that and breeding so heavily within that line, you need the foundation. And you also need to develop a couple of those lines to keep things genetically copacetic. Do we have that or is there more work to do before we get those dogs?"

We are close to having that quality in some individuals but we are not consistently reproducing it. Consistency is the key and we are far from that. WB didn't make his name by producing some excellent pups, he made his name by consistently producing excellent pups. We do not currently have several lines available but we have the makings of them in each of our breeders yards, we just have to apply our resources properly. We have work to do but our goal is grand.

Jerry, I would leave the neutering up to the wife. I'm sure its on her short list anyway :)

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Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

16, intelligent and articulate, I'm a fan!


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:48 am 
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I hope so, though I can't think of a ton of Lacys that people think are perfect and would want to reproduce exact copies. I can definitely think of a few, but not a ton. Of course a good dog is in the eye of the beholder. We can have minimal standards, but meeting a minimum set of requirements doesn't justify carbon copy reproduction.

For everyone that isn't a member of ETHD, check out the post that is currently going on about linebreeding. http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/foru ... pic=6209.0. It is really interesting and there are a lot of guys with some very good dogs commenting.

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"You must be a very small minority no matter who you hang around with. Maybe you should start a magazine, Vegetarian Hog Dogging Monthly, find some like-minded individuals."
- Inspiration for my next project from TBH

True Blue Lacys: http://www.truebluelacys.com
More Lacy Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/julieanna/sets/72157605027566732/


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:03 pm 
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Of course there is a shorter path, that avoids all this time-consuming breeding. Just pick the best dog out there and him/her cloned!

Just kidding... er... I think so anyway.

There was a really interesting story on NPR's "This American Life", about a family with a tame Brahman Bull (named Chance) famous for having his picture taken. They convinced Texas A&M to clone him, named him "Second Chance", and treated him like the original.. except this one has gored the owner twice, almost castrating him while being filmed for the show.

Oops.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:41 pm 
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Quote:
Of course there is a shorter path, that avoids all this time-consuming breeding. Just pick the best dog out there and him/her cloned!


I know you're kidding, Jim, but I think the point Jerry is getting at is that even if we wanted to/ had the resources to clone the perfect Lacy(s)...are there any worthy candidates? Mine certainly aren't.

Don't get me wrong...we have bred some of our dogs because we think they are worthy candidates. However, I don't think they're anywhere near perfect. When we plan a breeding, we try to use two dogs that complement each other's strengths, and make up for each other's weaknesses. The goal is to create a dog that is better than either of its parents are separately.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:24 pm 
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OK, I have a question. All of the previous talk has been basically about hog dogs, right? Since I am more interested in blood trailing, is the same thing going on in blood tracking lacys? What if you are interested in the lacy as a good all around dog, but one that excelled at blood tracking. If I wanted to breed Lucy, which I dont anymore, but if I did, would I have a problem finding a truly good blood tracking male? There are those of us who dont want the most gritty hog dog, but want a truly good ranch dog. I am happy with my dogs, and I know that ya'll are talking about getting the 'best' you can get. Which, I'm sure mine are not. But, anyway, how does all of this affect people who do want 'the best' in a blood tracking dog. I know that the dog has to be able to stay long on the track and has to be able to handle a wounded animal if need be.

How does Roy Hinds (I think thats his name) breed his dogs. His are a mix of something, arent they? Do his dogs come from mixing breeds, or does he breed his dogs from the dogs that he has already bred? Does that make sense? Since there arent a ton of Roy H's dogs out in the world, does he line breed? Wouldnt he have to?

All of this breeding stuff is way over my head and my interest, but it is important to me that something be done to get this breed back up to where it should be. I hate to read stories of the lacy dog not being capable of holding its own in anything. Its kinda like my kid not being good enough, you know? But then, we also have to realize that our kids cant excel at everything, so why should my dog? Can it be that we have lacys who are bang up good blood trackers, but not so great as hog dogs?

Betty

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:38 pm 
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Quote:
Can it be that we have lacys who are bang up good blood trackers, but not so great as hog dogs?


Betty, I don't know much about blood tracking, and we don't use our dogs in that way, so I can't answer your question.

What I do know is that, historically, Lacys (as a breed) were top-knotch hog hunters. Now, I think many people in the hunting community consider them to be more hit-and-miss. Some dogs will turn out great, but a lot of them won't. I want to consistently produce dogs that could work beside their ancestors and not miss a beat.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:57 pm 
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Given how good a not-so-great Lacy is, I'd sure love to get to know the really special ones, or the other breeds that are considered better working dogs. They must be really something. I just read the line-breeding article on ETHD, and think I'm starting to get it, at least a little. Sounds like it's all about the desirable recessive genes, and how you double those up by line breeding. Since both dogs have only the desired recessive, you know the offspring will have that. aa and aa can only result in another aa. Makes total sense.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:19 pm 
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Betty,

I would much rather run a wounded deer than a hog, thats what I enjoy. And to be honest, right now I am deviating from Lacys for my blood dogs. :(( There are alot of factors that go into blood dogs that are the same as hog dogs, but there are certain traits that I need (or want) in my blood tracking dogs that I cannot get from a Lacy (at this time), then again it may be all in my head. Your situation may be different than mine and a Lacy may fit your needs.
I run down here in South Texas, it is hot and dry. We are called out at different times of the day and night to run a track, times when its 80-90 degrees in the winter. It is harder for a cur to follow a bloodtrail in this part of the woods, especially when there is little blood and odor left. I have crossed two dogs, a cur and a hound. Not just any cur and not just any hound, I needed specific traits from each dog. The only negative is that I got a big dog, but I dont care about the size of my dogs as long as they can find deer. This dog has nose, range, bottom, independent and slow moving. Slow because I want a dog that can work out a track very methodicaly, nose to pick up on the odors in the heat, range- the ability to hit a blood trail and go over 2 miles following the track, and bottom to stay with a live deer until i get there, follow it if it breaks and keep with it. (my computer is about to restart automatiacally, I will post after it restarts)


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:44 pm 
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Jim: that's exactly correct in theory. Unfortunately there is always a variable in there somewhere due to the Y chromosome but the closer you breed and the longer you double up on traits, the stronger those traits, both good and bad, become. If you are willing to cull the bad and keep the good, its the most viable method of achieving any breeding goal.

Betty: Same,same. It does not matter what traits you are trying to expound, the method is the same. Double up on your desired traits by breeding in a line. There will always be small variances within that line so as long as you remain vigilant and pay attention, you can continue to make small changes along the way without ever leaving the line all together. EX: If you start to notice an increased level of aggression you can either start to study every pup you have sold and its offspring to find a second, third or fourth cousin (product of someone else outcross), who's manners were bred down to a more laid back dog by the other influence, and take that back to your line. Or you can "Back Breed" which is to breed back to a great grand parent or even a diciest relative. This method is becoming more and more popular as cryogenics and AI are becoming more affordable.

So far as Roy's dogs are concerned, I referred to them earlier. Some number of years ago, they were just some mutts that he through together little by little. When he achieved his goal, the perfect dog in his mind, he stopped mixing things in and started line breeding to set those traits. Today his dogs and their offspring consistently produce litter after litter of pups true to type with consistent quality, just like the WB BMCs.

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Remember the dog wags the pedigree and the reverse is not true.

16, intelligent and articulate, I'm a fan!


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:47 pm 
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I started running Digger with my crosses, I have 2 females crosses right now. I will drop both dogs on the track and more than once the crosses have bayed up the live buck before Digger got there. Digger works the line alot different than the hound crosses. But when there is a live buck, I want Digger to be there helping hold that deer and if the deer breaks Digger will be on it until the end. Now if I had Digger on the ground by himself would he have found the deer, probably but he works a track different. He works withing my sight on a hard track but on a fresh track he is gone, now the deer that the hounds bayed up first were hard tracks with minimul blood.

Now I am going back to Jefe who is a BMC WB dog, after we saw his style of hunting we said, we should have kept this dog on blood, because he will pick up a track and go with it up to 800 yards.

If you look at the book by John Jehennehy (sp?) he interviews Roy Hindes, his dogs came from a "Blue dog" his father bred and then they crossed some hound and some of that and some of this. His dogs are line bred and his line will almost never leave his yard, Im sure he has dogs placed in different locations but only he knows. And why not, its his line that his father started, and more importantly they work and keep producing excellent working/tracking dogs. I have also heard that out of any litter Roy picks the one he likes the most and puts it to work, they all make great blood dogs.

Hope this makes sense, I am no expert but I do like my dogs.....

Jerryg


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