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 Post subject: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:47 pm 
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There is no doubt that Parvo is a killer of pups. I am looking to see if I can find any percentages, but have not found any as yet. Mostly what I have found is pictures of a pup in a kennel with bloody diarrhea or this sad, forlorn look on its face.

However, what few people know of and rarely look into is that vaccines are deadly killers of pups and years later in dogs. Vaccines can cause death shortly after the shot. There are many diseases that are known by the entire vet community and taught in schools that cause suffering and expensive care for years. The dogs that have many of these diseases are subjected to steroids for their life span. Constant steroid use cuts down on the life span of the dog.

If you get your dog vaccinated as often as many people do, because many vets still push over vaccination, you can count on disease. You wont find your vet who vaccinated your dog admitting that is what caused the disease or death.

But, back to the parvo deal. I have had to deal with parvo in 2 of my dogs. And, I have a friend who had to deal with it. Each of the cases were totally different. I know that there are many people out there that have lost entire litters to parvo, but I am telling you of my experience.

The first was Billy, one of Lucys pups and my granddaughters pup. Donny called me and told me that Billy seemed listless and wasnt eating good. I told him to give him a little time, that it could be something that he had eaten. Next day Donny called and said that Billy had diarrhea and it really stunk. I told him to get him to the vet. My daugther in law took Billy to the vet where the parvo was diagnosed as bacterial and sent home with antibiotics. My daughter in law called me on the way home and told me what the vet said. I asked her if she told the vet that all the pups next door to them had died and told her to take him right back to the vet. Vet tested him for parvo and said that was what he had. Vet said that he would have to stay with her and receive IVs from Tues until Fri. Thurs they called and said that he was fine and he went home that day. The cost was under $100.

Abe got parvo when he was around 8 months. Dont know for sure where he got it. He was never vaccinated because of his cleft palate and us worrying about him getting sick. We took him to the vet, where the diagnosis was a bacterial infection. Different vet, different town, over a year after Billy's bout with parvo. I told the vet that I had dealt with a puppy that had come down with parvo a week or so earlier. The vet then tested him for parvo and thats what it was. The vet did nothing for him but sent him home and told to watch him.

The next case was a pup that I had dealt with that got sick on on Fri. The vet was slow in getting back to the owner and by the time the person got the diagnosis she had to take the pup to the er clinic. Dont know if any of you have ever dealt with an er clinic, but I have and they will steal you blind. Anyway, the pup was there for the weekend and then sent home.

Yes, there are pups who die, regardless of the care. Some dogs spend several days in the clinic and still die. Parvo affects mainly the heart and the digestive system. The body tries to get rid of the virus in the intestinal system by dumping lots of water into the intestines, trying to get the bug out of the system. This causes the dehydration. If the heart is affected, the pup will die with little symptoms.

http://www.2ndchance.info/parvo.htm

Ron Hines DVM PhD


Canine parvovirus is the most common serious infectious disease of dogs in the United States. Canine parvovirus causes ulcerative enteritis and diarrhea in susceptible dogs. This diarrhea can be bloody and life threatening. The parvovirus has mutated several times since 1980. The most common strain today is CPV-2B.
The high mortalities of the 1970s and 1980’s have lessened due to effective vaccines. Still, some dogs continue to break with the disease and die despite vaccination.

Dynamics Of The Disease
Parvovirus is an extremely tough and resistant bug. The virus lives for long periods of time on floors, food containers and other household objects. Rugs are particularly difficult to sanitize. It is thought that household vermin such as cockroaches move the virus from place to place. The virus is both resistant to phenolic disinfectants and to heat. It can be inactivated, however, with ordinary household bleach used at a concentration of one part bleach to twenty parts water. Exposure to sunshine also kills the virus. For the bleach solution to work, any caked organic material must first be removed by washing.

Although it takes one or two weeks for the dog to develop signs of disease, the virus is shed in the feces from the third day of exposure onward. This means that dogs that appear healthy can already be shedding the virus and contaminating the home.

The Symptoms of Parvo
Parvovirus disease is remarkable in that symptoms can vary from none at all to a fatal disease. Four factors govern the severity of the disease: age at exposure, the size of the virus dose, the presence of maternal antibody, and the breed of dog involved.
Dogs receive transient maternal antibody from their mothers through their first milk or colostrum. This antibody gives the puppy resistance to the disease. Puppies that are housed in a parvo-filled environment rarely break with the disease until they reach 14-20 weeks of age. At that time their mother’s immunity no longer protects them and they may die of the disease.
Dogs over six month of age develop natural resistance to the effects of parvovirus. Many of these dogs show only transient diarrhea. By the time the dog reaches one or two years of age the disease can be so mild that it passes unnoticed by the owners.
For unknown reasons, Doberman Pinschers, Rottweilers and Pit Bull Terriers become more ill with this disease than other breeds.

The most common form of parvovirus infection is a sudden (acute) inflammation of the small intestine or enteritis. This is characterized by depression, vomiting, diarrhea and profound dehydration. Bloody stools and a drop in white blood cell numbers are common. Some puppies die as soon as diarrhea occurs but many linger on for 4-6 days. Those that survive eight days usually recover. The lack of white blood cells and ulceration of the lining of the small intestine lead to secondary bacterial infections. There are many other virus and bacteria that can cause bloody diarrhea in dogs. This leads to misdiagnosis where not all cases of “Parvo” in puppies and adults are actually due to this virus.

Diagnosis
Although symptoms can be very suggestive of Parvo, true diagnosis requires an antibody test that detects the actual parvovirus in stool samples. The test is an ELISA test or enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay. Early in the disease, this test can be negative. Virus isolation is possible but the procedure is quite expensive and rarely done. In practice, the presence of an acute hemorrhagic diarrhea is usually all that is required for a tentative diagnosis of parvovirus.

Treatment
Treatment of parvovirus is directed at correcting the life-threatening dehydration that accompanies the diarrhea with intravenous fluids (lactated ringers solution with bicarbonate). Ten to forty milliliters per pound is given initially and then a slow intravenous drip may stabilize these dogs. Once the initial dehydration is corrected, maintenance fluids can also be given subcutaneously. We also give medicines that relax intestinal spasms such as metoclopramide (Reglan, 0.1-0.25mg/lb three or four times a day) and trimethobenzamide (Tigan, 1.5mg/lb three times a day). Besides this, the dogs are placed on antibiotics to prevent secondary bacterial infection through the damaged small intestine (cephalothin, Keflin @ 5-15mg/pound given four times a day intramuscularly or intravenously). Early in the disease dogs may run a short period of fever. But puppies’ temperatures often drop to subnormal a few days later. These dogs need additional sources of heat. It helps to sit with the dog, pet it and encourage its will to live. Many of the younger dogs have hookworm infestations that make the parvovirus disease more severe. As soon as these dogs can hold down liquids, I worm them with pyrantel pamoate (Strongid, Nemex, 2.5mg/pound).
Some veterinarians give the dogs small doses of butorphanol tartrate (Torbugesic 0.05-0.1mg/pound intramuscularly) to relieve the severe abdominal pain that accompanies this disease.
Dogs and puppies that begin to accept small portions of food invariably are on the road to recovery. Wagging their tail is also a good sign. Despite all my efforts, many young dogs with parvo do not survive.

Immunity To The Disease
Recovered dogs are probably immune for life. Because of the strong immunity that follows infection, carrier dogs do not exist.
Many excellent brands of vaccine are on the market. Most contain living, attenuated (weakened) parvovirus. All products are safe and produce good immunity when the last injection is given at 18 weeks of age. When a vaccine fails it is usually because it was given to a puppy before enough passive maternal antibody was gone from its blood stream. At six weeks of age one quarter of puppies can be immunized successfully. At nine weeks of age forty percent of puppies can be immunized successfully. By sixteen weeks sixty percent of puppies can be immunized successfully and by eighteen weeks ninety-five percent of puppies can be immunized successfully. Some newer vaccines called high titer-low passage vaccines are successful in immunizing puppies at an earlier age (12wks). Antibody level testing is quite expensive. Rather than measuring antibody levels in the blood of puppies in order to choose the right age to administer the vaccine, we give a series of shots designed to successfully immunize most puppies before they come in contact with the virus while susceptible.
I give parvo vaccine at 12, 14 and 18 weeks of age. When I see puppies at 9 weeks of age I may also vaccinate them. This “puppy shot series” causes us to vaccinate some puppies that are not ready to respond to the vaccine and to re-vaccinate some puppies that are already immune to the disease. It is also possible for some susceptible puppies to “slip through” these periodic vaccinations and be susceptible to parvo for a period of days. These are the unfortunate dogs that develop parvo despite vaccination.


Conclusion
Parvovirus is still a major threat to dogs in the United States and a common cause of mortality in puppies. Due to the resistance of the virus to antiseptics, heat and drying it is impossible to manage a kennel to be 100% safe from this disease. No matter what puppy vaccination schedule is used, there will be a window of susceptibility when puppies are at risk of disease if exposure occurs. Rapid veterinary care can save many infected dogs but some will die from the disease despite excellent care.



Note that Dr. Hines gives the ratio of bleach to water for killing the virus.

I have read on other sites that the virus can live up to 2 years. It can be trasmitted by a cockroach or a fly walking across the infected area. Also can be spread by birds that have picked up something in one yard and deposits in the next yard. Raccoons are supposed to carry it. You can also pick it up at the vets office!! They may clean the table, but not the floor that someone walked on. If the table is infected and only spritzed with plain water, the very table that you are putting your dog on may have parvo on it from another dog.

Another thing that very few vets will tell you is that the parvo virus is shed from the pup that was vaccinated thru its feces. So, after you get your pup vaccinated, you need to be responsible and take it home and keep it there for a while. It is not wise to get a pup while you are in the process of vaccinating your pup.

There are so many ways to go with vaccinating a dog. It takes a long, long time to get to the point where I am. I am ONLY telling everyone not to just blindly accept that you should vaccinate your dog for everything. There are things that you should never vaccinate for. There are vaccines that simply do not work. There are vaccines that you should give your dog, only if you live in certain parts of the country. It is ideal to give one vaccine at a time, but rarely is this done due to the costs.

Do not fall for the pictures of a pup in a bloody pool of diarrhea. That is a marketing ploy. The companies and persons who advocate vaccines know that parvo stikes fear in the heart of a new puppy owner.

Also realize that the healthier your dog is, the better if fares against the illnesses, worms, parasites, etc that your dog comes in contact with. A healthy dog has a strong immune system and its immune system is able to do what it is supposed to- fight. A dog who is bombarded with chemicals, vaccines and food that is not good for it cannot have a strong immune system. (You all knew that I had to say that, right?) ;)

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:55 pm 
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Parvo is scary, and I really swallowed hard a few times before deciding -not- to give Cannon any additional vaccinations after I picked him up. He had been given the combo shots starting at 6 weeks of age; way too young to do anything but weaken his immune system. The scariest thing was taking him for walks, knowing that, at a minimum, he was being exposed due to his exposure to recently vaccinated dogs, and the waste of vaccinated dogs. But hey, that is how the immune system works, and exposure in the ways it happened for him let his entire system defend him. Exposure happens naturally through the mouth and nose. Saliva and mucous membranes are part of the defense, as are stomach acids. By the time a virus hits the bllod stream, it has already been softened up by the perimeter defenses. Once in the blood the rest of the immune system can work on, develop antibodies, and most importantly, form "memory cells" that will respond to the next intrusion by quickly forming new antibodies.

I am 100% certain he is a far healthier dog than he would have been had I kept going with the vaccinations. The only problem he has had was a tumor that was direct -result- of his earlier vaccines. Sheesh, some vets even vaccinate cats in the tail now, so any resulting cancer can be easily removed by amputating the tail.

One point I'll make, that sounds harsh, is that all the vaccinating may tamp down the amount of the virus out there, enabling folks like me to not vaccinate in relative safety, but it also eliminates the natural selection that would otherwise create dogs with strong immune systems, able to fend off diseases themselves. Nature's culling has been eliminated. We have replaced natural selection with "human selection".

Also, there is fairly widespread misunderstanding of what a titers test measures. Titers tests measue the amount of active response to an exposure. A dog is exposed, the immune systems responds, and antibodies are created. Those antibodies then decline over time until there is another exposure. So measuring a gyp's titers tells you the level of her active response to an exposure, and the antibodies she generated in response. If the dam hasn't been recently exposed, then there won't be antibodies, even though the gyp has immunity because she has developed memory cells!

It is my understanding that a gyp does NOT pass her memory cells on to her pups. If she only passes antibodies (active defense), and not memory cells (long term immunity), then a gyp would have to have been recently exposed in order to pass her defense on to her pups. That would explain why, sometimes, a litter can get parvo during the period they should be protected by the mother's immune system. The mother had not been recently exposed, so she had no active defense to pass on to her pups.

The vaccination schedule Betty posted in Forrest's thread, from Cat's Cradle Catahoulas, has been developed based on an understanding of the facts I've outlined. The level of active response in the gyp is measured to determine how much protection the pups are receiving from the gyp, and a proper date for vaccination is determined. The (single) vaccination is given to stimulate the development of memory cells, giving the pups long term immunity. A Titers test is given to the pups, to ensure that the vaccine generated an active immune response, which is needed for the memory cells to develop. No active response means a failed vaccination, because the antibodies from the gyp killed the vaccine before it could generate a response. All you need is one good vaccination, and you have immunity, certainly for years, and likely for life. The Titers test needs to be given shortly after the vaccine, so that it measures response from the vaccine. Giving it later could give a 'false negative', making it look like the vaccine didn't work, when in fact it had, but there had been no reoccurence of exposure.

As I mentioned, if there is no active reponse in the gyp when the pups are whelped, then they are at risk until they develop their own immunity, either by vaccination, or naturally through later exposure to the disease, probably from contacting the waste of recently vaccinated dogs. Cannon is "vaccinated" every day by his incessant sniffing and marking of any place another dog has been during the last century.

The trick is to protect new pups enough to cover the period between their loss of the gyp's protection (if it was there due to active response in the gyp) and the development of their own memory cells, which will only be created in response to exposure. If you are going to use a vaccine to do that, remember that you should not combine vaccines. Give one kind at a time to improve the odds of your pup's system handling it. And only give each kind once. That's all it takes, if it is given at the right time. And remember that you -are- exposing your dog to the disease, and doing so in a way that bypasses a big part of their protection system by putting the disease directly into their bloodstream. Your alternative is to let the pup be exposed naturally, by contact to recently vaccinated dogs or their waste. You will be doing that whether you want to or not, and a healthy pup will usually (but not always) be able to handle the exposure.

There as no such thing as absolute safety in this area - nothing is fail safe. Both approaches entail risks. What I have decided (Betty too) is that we'd rather accept the risk of no-vaccines, or minimal vaccines, because -that- risk at least has the benefit of producing healthier dogs than the vaccination alternative.

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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:22 pm 
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Well said, Jim! Much better than I could say!

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Incidentally, and not that it matters but, I only give my pups one parvo shot (vanguard puppy plus 5 way hi/t lo/p), I will NEVER get a rabies vaccine until after 1 year of age (even then, only if they HAVE to go to the vet for something else and they require it), one of my dogs has never had either, and I also NEVER give annual boosters.

The only case of Parvo that I have had personally was also the only one of my dogs who got the full 3 shot vaccine regimen. One of my pups (given away) got parvo and it had all 3 shots, and to the best of my recollection, every other pup that I have helped treat for parvo had the full round, or was on schedule to get all three shots, also.

Is there a chance that one, or two, or three of my pups will die as a result of my "irresponsibility"? Sure there is but I feel like the rest of my pups, and my line (even the breed as a whole), benefit. Personally, I am happy to sacrifice the weak.

Disclaimer: I should make it clear that I do not study the subject, nor do I have the knowledge that Betty and Jim do. Heck, I cant even make an educated argument to support my opinion without research and plagiarism. BUT, I am rebellious, believe that most Vets are more concerned with their income then your dog, much less the breed as a whole, and I have taken the time and risk required to determine what I feel is the best SOP. That determination will continue to rule in my kennel.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:21 pm 
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Sounds like a good and well reasoned approach, Steve. Obviously I too believe you are improving your line and the breed.

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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:10 pm 
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This is interesting, I must be lucky cause I give all my pups all 3 of the 4 way shots. Distemper, adenovirus 2, parainfluenza, and pavrovirus. I have never had a pup show any signs of sickness and ive never had a case of parvo in my kennels. I do buy the shots from the vet and not a feed store. I have givin them the rattlesnake vac. and rabies shots. I know we all have our own way of running our kennels and caring for our animals. I do like to read about the ideas of others that have studied far more into vaccines than I have.
~Chad

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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Could someone please tell me what vaccines to get for my new lacy pup and what to avoid?
Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:18 pm 
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I do the 7 way(has the parvo in it) vaccine at 4,8,12,16 weeks then rabies at 5 months..jmo


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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:38 pm 
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https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments ... elines.pdf Guidelines for vaccines according to the American Animal Hospital Association- 2011

http://www.wsava.org/PDF/Misc/Vaccinati ... es2010.pdf Guidelines for vaccines according to the World Small Animal Veterinary Association- June 2010

These groups advise giving many more vaccines than I ever would give a puppy or a dog, but if you feel like you must vaccinate, then read these and base your decision on their opinion. There is a lot of reading here, but you can scan over it and get what you are looking for. You will also note that they advise against giving unnecessary vaccines and you are the person who should decide that. It depends on your way of life, what part of the country you live in and what your pup will be exposed to. Vaccines are not a one size fits all.

Both of these groups advise that a pup should not be given vaccines until the maternal antibodies have become less active. This should happen between 8 - 12 weeks, altho some people say from 6 to 16 weeks. At any rate, when you give a pup a vaccine at 4 and 6 weeks, you are doing nothing but harming the pup and wasting money.

Vaccines contain adjuvants which are dangerous in any form, especially when administered to a pup whose whole body is immature and easily damaged. Mercury is the preservative used in most canine vaccines. Mercury is listed as one of the 10 most dangerous toxins by the CDC, and yet, it is routinely injected in puppies without a thought. There are other toxic substances in vaccines, but I would have to do a lot of research thru all of my bookmarks to find all of them as I have gotten rusty on most of this.

When you give vaccines without thought or research, you can be opening up a whole can of worms for yourself and your dog. Vaccines can and do cause damage. The vet world knows this and has proof of it. Vet colleges teach diseases that are caused by vaccines. These diseases are not something that is easy on the dog, or the owner.

If you give a vaccine and your dog changes suddenly or even weeks later, look to the vaccine. It is not uncommon for a dog to have adverse effects from a vaccine, altho many of them pass without vet intervention, but I can tell you, it is scary when you have had the vet give your dog a vaccine and a few hours later, the dogs head starts swelling. Report all adverse effects to your vet and to the USDA.

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Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
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Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:37 am 
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Here is a link to a site that is by Dr. Bob Rogers. Good quick read, even tho it is several pages long. It is a little old, but it reviews written papers on vaccines, etc. http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/ ... %20102.htm

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Betty

"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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 Post subject: Re: parvo discussion
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:09 pm 
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I hate parvo.......had dealings with it in the 80s.......if I never see it again it will be to soon.

Thanks Betty...

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