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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:09 pm 
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They just want a good Lacy. So WHAT am i supose to do???? :-?


The word 'no' comes to mind. Like Jerry says, choose who you want to breed Patch to. Be selective- Breed him to only dogs that the gyp's owner will keep track of the pups. There are way too many dogs out there that are telling people that their dogs are out of Brook's Patch and selling their pups on that name. Will those dogs work, just because they have Patch's bloodline in them? Who knows when the pups are not kept track of.

Breeding is a huge responsibility. One that was way more than I knew when I got into breeding Lucy and one reason that I got out of it. Being a responsible breeder is even tougher that being just a breeder. If we want to maintain this breed as we started out to do, it means tough decisions for each and every one of us.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:07 pm 
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I am going to throw something else into this to think about.
I look for a kennel that is know for producing great dogs for years.
I first look for a stud dog that is consistently great at his chosen job.
I WANT TO PICK HIM APART. I want to see what his faults are, what good or great traits he has.
That give me information so I can pick a female with good or great traits where he has faults, in the female, the stud [a must] has to have good or great traits where she has faults.
I want to see as many of his offspring’s as I possibly can.
I want to see no less then 75% his sons that look at least like their sire, in size , body structure, Temperament. In other words , I want to look at that son and be able to know who his daddy was.
When I look at the studs daughter’s , I want to see no less then 60-70% of them look at least like a female version of their dad and has the same or better working ability.
But the most important thing I look for is: Is this stud consistently putting 75% or better, male pups on the ground That can equal or be better working dogs then their sire.and can reproduce as good as or better as them selfs.
Can this stud’s daughters whelp consistently good working , conformation correct pups from a different bloodline .
This is what I have done for many years. Then I get involved with the lacy breed. I have never had such a hard time trying to figure out who came from what, No body uses kennel name’s to track their pups. So because My boss and I want to track the pups we are putting kennel names on all of our dogs , AND ANY ADULT DOG OR PUPPY WE BUY , we are using the breeders name SUCH AS : Brooks Rascal, or Lows Badger as an example. And a really pet peeve of mine is ------ when I take the time to name and register these pups with a kennel name so They can be tracked really easily . Then somebody else get the dog and changes the registered name to something else. They can call this dog anything they want , but let it keep its name so I can look back three or more generations of a dog and see my kennel name. that tells me what is being produced from these lines.
Just my thoughts on picking a good stud dog and breeding pups
Grandmadawg


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Once again Granny I agree with your thoughts..............well said

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:44 pm 
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O.K. I have thought about how maney times Patch has been bred over the yrs. and according to my records he wae bred 1 time in 2011-1 time in 2010- 2 times in 2009-1 in o8-1 in 07. He was studed out 2 more times in that time. Now i donot see that as too many puppys. Betty i am sure you know more about how maney pups were reg. I know how maney he had except for 1 litter. My records show he has had 33 puppys. in the last 4 yrs. If that is not right please let me know. :-??

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Last edited by jim b on Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:43 am 
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Jimmy, I'm used to stud dogs breeding that much in a week. :)) I forget sometimes it's a very limited population.
My thought is there are not enough breeders building on generations of working dogs that have been refined into a line of their own. Maybe the outline that Grandma dog posted should be added to the breeder app.
I know very few NLDA breeders(so forgive me if I don't take you into consideration). I don't know anyone here personally, but the few that stand out to me are John, DJ and Amber, and Jimmy. They work at and promote their breeding programs to build something that is their own. Unfortunatly you can't start with what they have, so new breeders capitalize on their hard work. Trouble is Jimmy is one of a few that has done this long enough to build a sucessful line all his own and everyone wants in.
Again, this is just my view from the outside. My experiance come from a breed that had hundreds of well established lines. I'm certain there must be several more good breeders in the association. Seems to me that's part of the problem, their dogs are relatively unknown.
My mind runs way faster than my finger typing, ~X( so forgive me. I do ramble a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:28 am 
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This is a good conversation with many very good points. We just need to keep talking and many of the answers will come to the top.

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:58 pm 
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This is just me trying to be funny
If there is no genetic deversity amonst the breed we would have to add a trait to the Lacy bumper sticker:
Bay, Herd, track, tree and Pick. :D
and start giving Lacy's a new job... Playing banjo :-o

A more serious opinion:

I understand linebreeding can be OK to a point but IMO it could lead to problems and if the genetic diversity is not created amongst the small population of Lacy breeders IMO it can cause unchangable problems within the breed. :-??


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:20 pm 
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jmc243 I have had Lacy dogs for 54 yrs. and i have NEVER seen most of the problems we are going through today. I may not understand genes or linebreeding BUT i do understand LACY DOGS.

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:34 pm 
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Jim B, I am not calling u or anyone else out and I know you know what you are doing or folks wouldn't want your dogs, shot your dog is my dogs daddy, as you already know I do not know a lot about breeding and I am learning a great deal from you and everyone else on this forum. I do not have a 1/2% of the knowledge you have with Lacy's and I am not sure what the right answers are or what is to much, I was just giving my own personal opinion...


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:54 pm 
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There are different opinions about what makes line breeding. Would be interested in some opinions of what line breeding really is.

I do know that line breeding is ok, IF the breeder is conscientious about the pups being produced. There are many, many breeders of all different breeds that practice line breeding. Line breeding doubles up on all the genes, if I am correct, and if I'm not, some one jump in. That means that you double up on the good genes and the bad genes. If a stud dog( and I am NOT talking about Patch!) is especially gritty and hard working, but lacks a bit on being as intelligent as you would want. You have to watch the pups produced from line breeding said dog to make sure that doubling up on the lack of the intelligence gene doesnt cause there to be dumb pups running all over everywhere. Culling has to be practiced on the pups that do not meet the intelligence bit! If the pups are not culled by the breeder and they are sent out into the working world, natural culling will take place.

Of the few line breedings that I have known about, all of them have been done with a great respect for what the breeders were doing. The pups from these breedings are being tracked and or kept by the breeders. It is just another example of how the breeders must be responsible for themselves. A breeder who is breeding for the good of the breed does not take anything about breeding lightly. They are not in it for the money, but simply for producing the best dog that they are able to produce.

I still want some people to tell me what they think that line breeding is, whether they breed or not.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Well said Betty. :-BD That is my understanding of linebreeding.

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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:32 pm 
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I am not saying anything is wrong with LBreeding (i was just joking about the banjo...), I know and understand LBing can be done and be done correctly. Breeders for all breeds do it for a lot of different reasons. Again I am not saying anything is wrong with it especially when it is done correctly, I'm certain most of the folks on this forum care and have been doing it properly for years,
The only point I was/am trying to make is IMO it seems to me there are a lot more people that are Line-Breeding Lacy's than there are trying to increase and spread the gene pool and I think both methods are needed. But...
IMO - there is a shortage of Lacy breeders doing the later and if the gene pool is not spread it could eventually cause problems within the Lacy breed. Another words if everyone is LBing i think it could eventually hurt the breed rather than help.... am I wrong, is this at least a reasonable point of veiw?

I appologize in adavnce if my ignorance of breeding offends anyone


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:20 pm 
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I went to collage for animal breeding, I have personal experience in sheep, goats, cows, horses, Siberian husky's, and rabbits. as my professors would say line breeding is inbreeding when it DOES NOT work. you have to watch what you breeding to for example I have a real good cow her sire is not only her dad but her maternal granddad I would not breed her again to another bull that had said sire with in the first 2 lines on his pedigree. if I did funky stuff would start to happen. and i know a lot of people get hung up on lines they say oh that dog had the same sire or dam back 3 or 4 generations back, well so what he or she may be on the papers but genetically speaking that dog may have the same coat color, not all the same genetics. every time you breed that animal the genes are diluted just a little so you go from 100% to 50% to 25% and so (it can be the same for a specific trait too)on that is why it is so important to watch your breeding because you can have the working ability breed out of a dog with in 5 generations. if you want a specific trait you need to line breed unless you find some outside lines to breed to and bingo you hybrid vigor(whole new can of worms). I have seen it all from breeding dad to daughter to gran daughter and then breeding again to great grand daughter after that you have got to get away from that sire. and you NEVER breed son back to mother, im not sure why but bad thing always happen!!! but I also agree with grandma you need to look at both the sire and dam regardless of pedigree, and compensate lacking traits in the opposite of the pair. so if you want a better coat color(one of the things id like to do with my breeding) then you need to find a dog that has said desired trait and mix it with a dog that still has a good working ability. you may have to find a couple "super model" animals to get the aesthetics your looking for to mix up the gene pool by keeping it fresh but not getting away from you desired goal, i see it all the time in the paint horse world yeah he may be an awesome stud, done it all but the mare you breed to is just plain gorgeous but the cross works because the working genes are not massively diluted by the non working genes. every breeder needs to as themselves before they make a cross what is my goal with these two individuals, am i going for blood trailing or a hog dog or a lap dog?. this is what i have learned and my experience with line-breeding it can be an asset to the breed but you have to be very careful not to over do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:32 pm 
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trapper thanks for the detail .....this is where my ignorance comes in and the detail helps...


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 Post subject: Re: Stud dog management
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:44 pm 
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No problem ignorance is bliss but this is a topic that ignorance in unacceptable!


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