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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:22 pm 
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I'm sorry, but you are missing the point. We are talking red, blue and tri dogs and breeding the combination. We're not talking about a dog that has too much hair, too long hair, bad teeth or anything other than color.

The picture that is shown has not to do with color, but with pattern.

Let me ask you, CAMO- If it turns out that your little Bull turns out to have a bit of too long hair on his tail - are you going to neuter him? Oh, but wait, if he is a heck of a bay dog, has a cowlick or anything other minor thing like that, lets neuter him!!!! Dont run the risk of passing on a bad coat for a great working bay dog!! Gad.

If you dont want to change the standards- then by all means, lets go back to the red and blue dogs that the Lacy brothers bred. If you think we shouldnt have red tris- then, heck, lets get rid of the blue tris too, because they are of bad breeding from the 50'. Ignore the fact that breeding a red to a tri can produce a red tri. Live in the dark ages and ignore all the genetic testing that is available and continue to depend on one or two stud dogs to put out all the pups. Go ahead and have conditions for matador breeding and get problems from that. But, hey, dont allow in a red tri, that came from good breeding and can be totally explained.

I'm talking science here, not what may have been in the dogs from bad blood. We all know that the breed was messed up, but to continue to punish good dogs, because their genes lined up between the red, tri and blue differently from what most people think they ought to, then we never will have any good stud dogs out there, or any good females either. Females should only be bred 3 times or so. How in the heck are we ever going to get any good working dogs from that?? Oh, but it's ok to breed a female numerous times- as long as she puts out only red, blue and blue tris, lets breed her until she cant hold her back up.

Let's put Fred's red tri in the back, forget that that dog ever existed. Does it not bother anyone that is saying to keep only the blues, reds and tris that most blues are not blue??? If anyone out there has what they think is a real blue, let me pay for the testing on it- compare it to my Abe, or any other blue that is really brown and lets see what we get. If you look to color genetics, there is no difference from a red with blue on it than a blue with brown on it. Get real people.

We can always talk about what is in the wood pile. But, if we have good dogs, from good lineage turning out different colored dogs that are perfectly explainable by genetic testing, then what the heck is the problem? I'm sorry, I just dont get it?

I would also like to keep the other organization out of this. This is something that I want to do to explain color genetics to people. The rules for the other organ have nothing to do with us. The people who run the NLDA and the person who runs the NLDR are 2 totally different things from the other groups. I do not want a war started between the two groups because someone mentioned the other association.

I am not telling anyone to have their dogs color tested. I will have my dogs tested, anyone who wants to have their color explained, instead of someone saying that there must be something in the wood pile, then we can do it.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:19 pm 
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Jimmy stated that he saw his first tri in the 50's. That does not mean that there was not a tri before his time. He was not born in 1858! :)) . None the less, I do not see a lot of people swaying with the red tri and the cream, and unless I mis read the guidelines unanimous vote on those colors becoming breed standard would have to happen for them to be added to the list of colors. Since I dont see that happening and not 1 PERSON alone can change the standard then in my eyes we re running circles here. Now I want to know how breeding a dog with a known DEFECT is an Ethical way to breed. It's not. [-x
I've read and cleft pallet IS a genetic defect. Cleft palate is a condition in which genetics are a roll play. The hard surface of the roof of the mouth and the softer palate behind it fail to close completely. The first sign something is wrong (if you don't examine your pups immediately after delivery) is usually milk bubbling out the nose when the newborn attempts to nurse. In addition to strictly genetic cause, It is a frequent defect found in offspring of diabetics. Now, Abe had cleft palate as a puppy and he might have been a jam up dog, but he SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BREED. Now we have 7 or 8 puppies running around with those genes. Now if they breed it continues down the line. Not trying to talk bad or ruffle feathers, just feel like we need to stress the importance of ethical breeding.


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:21 pm 
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I will also say that the breeders code of ethics has nothing to do with the standards, other than a breeder is expected to follow the standards that are set by the NLDA. It is not up to the registry to change the standards, but it is up to the association. The breeders code of ethics has to do with breeders following simple rules about how they breed and breeding for working ability.
Lacy Breeder Code of Ethics

The National Lacy Dog Association requires that all breeders subscribe to the following Code of Ethics to promote and foster the highest standards among breeders, owners and fanciers, and to encourage sportsmanship and cooperation in the improvement and advancement of the Lacy Dog. This Code of Ethics has been adapted from the United Kennel Club, the premier performance dog registry established in 1898.

RECORDS
I am familiar with, and follow, the NLDA Kennel Requirements. I will keep accurate records, and retain those records for a minimum of five years. These records will include: stud service contracts, pedigrees, all litters produced and all dogs/puppies sold. I will report to the NLDA and applicable registries any person who falsifies a registration, or knowingly misrepresents a pedigree.

BREEDING
- I shall plan each breeding with the paramount intention of improving the breed.
- I will select the stud dog and brood bitch with an eye to conformation, temperament and working instinct and ability, with a careful study of the breed standard and the principles of genetics.
- I will not breed any male or female until they are both physically and mentally mature.
- I will not breed any male or female until they have both established themselves as working dogs.
- Before entering into any breeding arrangement, I will scrutinize the pedigree, conformation and working potential of both the sire and dam, keeping in mind the ideal of the breed. I have an obligation to refuse the breeding if, in my opinion, it is not in the best interest of the breed.
- As a responsible stud dog owner, I understand that should I refuse a breeding, I will fully explain my reasons to the owner of the bitch.
- I believe that only those dogs known to be free of serious or disqualifying defects should be used for breeding. I will not breed monochrids, cryptochrids, dogs with vicious or shy temperaments, or dogs with serious defects or disqualifications addressed in the breed standards.
- As a responsible breeder, I will refrain from using a dog that, although free from serious or disqualifying defects, consistently produces afflicted puppies.
- I will require the buyers of unaltered pet quality puppies to spay or neuter them.

HEALTH
I will maintain high standards of health and care for my dogs, and guarantee the health of my puppies at the time of sale.

SALES
- I will be discriminating in the sales of my puppies, and concerned with the type of homes in which they are placed. My dogs/puppies will not be sold to dog wholesalers, retailers or through auctions.
- I will transfer all applicable registration papers at the time the purchase agreement is completed and is agreeable to both parties.
- Upon the sale of a dog/puppy, I will provide the buyer with properly executed registration documents, diet record, an inoculation and parasite control record and a health guarantee.
- I will refrain from releasing any puppy until it is at least eight weeks old.
- I will make a lifetime commitment to my puppies, providing educated advice and placement assistance if necessary.

ADVERTISING
- My advertising of dogs/puppies will be factual and honest, both in substance and implication.
- I will take special care to honestly portraying the working ability of both the stud dog and brood bitch.
- I will avoid encouraging buyers regarding the breeding potential of a dog/puppy. I believe breeding purebred dogs involves certain responsibilities, and I will not take it lightly.

COMPETITOR/BREEDER RELATIONS
- I understand that competing with dogs is a sport, and that I am expected to express good sportsmanship in all activities.
- As an exhibitor, I will refrain from unnecessary criticism of other people's dogs.
- As a matter of ethics, I pledge to help educate the general public as well as to assist the novice breeder.

IMPLEMENTATION
This Code of Ethics is intended as an expression of goals for breeders, exhibitors and fanciers. Breeders are expected to police themselves in a civil and responsible manner. Complaints regarding unethical conduct are taken seriously and will be addressed by the NLDA in a prompt manner.


I also want everyone to know that I know that I am up against Jimmy Brooks on this. He is a powerful force to be reckoned with in the lacy world. I also know what is being said about me wanting to change the standards. Let it be known that I am Betty Leek, owner of the National Lacy Dog Registry. I am not anyone else, I am not acting like any one else. I seriously resent being compared to anyone else.

I knew when I started this that Jimmy and others would have a fit. I did not expect the talking behind my back that is going on, but I guess when you buck the system, that is what happens.

Also, breeding a dog that has a cleft palate is not something that should be done lightly. Abe is cleft palate and he was bred. He produced no cleft palate pups. There is no test to prove if cleft palate is genetic in dogs. When there is a test for it, I will have it done. There are probably lots and lots of dogs out there who produce cleft palate pups, but no one knows for sure what causes it. There are many reasons to produce a cleft palate puppy. One of them being the same thing that causes the white spots on the lacy's chest. The cells, for some reason, do not close up completely like they should. That is exactly the same thing that the color does causing the white on the chest. Cleft palate pups usually die within 12 to 15 hours after birth because they cant keep suction on the nipple to bring the milk down. If a breeder is watching the pups, they can tell that a pup is not doing well and the pup can be bottle fed. It is not for just everyone, but a cleft palate pup can grow up to be a great dog. I know, I have one.

Betty

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:22 pm 
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Colby, you need to know what you are talking about. If you find anything on the web that shows me where I can get a DNA test done on a dog, let me know. There is speculation and there is a link in families, but no site that I have ever found says that it is genetic. There is also a link to families for cancer, but I dont know of anyone who will say that cancer is genetic. There are many more than 6 or 7 dogs out there with the tendancy to produce a cleft palate. Many vets and breeders dont even know that it exists in dogs. Go talk to someone else about cleft palate, until you have lived it and researched in dogs and can prove to me that Abe has produced any more dogs who have cleft palate than any dog who belongs to the breeder who doesnt have a clue that their puppies may be dieing from the effects of cleft palate.

When me, Jimmy and some others visited with Mrs. Gibbs, she stated that there were only red and blue lacys. They were called red dogs and blue dogs. No, Jimmy wasnt around there, but he is the one who says that Mrs. Gibbs was the person to talk to about lacy dogs. So, if she only knew of red and blue dogs, then the tri has to be something in the wood pile. If Jimmy didnt know of one, and he is the supreme authority on the lacy breed, then I think that there werent any out there that were pure blooded lacys.


Betty

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:33 pm 
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Betty, I have consulted with 5 vets in my area 3 of which confirmed it was genetic 2 of which said it was genetic/ and or environmental exposures to abnormal conditions, which I knew Abe would not fall into the exposure group because he is well taken care of. I did not ask them about a blood test, but I will when I get a chance. In addition to the comment refferring to me needing to know what I am talking about. I do. I have done my research and would not have posted a comment as I did if I didn't do my homework. Also I will have to re look up the websites but I read multiple sites saying cleft palate was genetic and or environmental exposure. The comment I posted last was straight off one of the websites. I m not sure what Vets that don't know about cleft palate, but that seems like something that would be taught it Vet school. As I stated above the Vets I talked to were very familiar with the Genetic Defect.


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Betty if he does not make the cut he will not and I repeat will not be bred. I just mentioned I took my other male Smoke out of my breeding program and he is now neutered and he is a dam good bay dog. But his hair was to long and he was never bred and he never will be.He passed his NLDA standards inspection to breed bit he did not pass mine. He can still bay he just can't breed. I would do the same with Bull if there is anything that I feel dosen't meet what I am looking for in a dog he is out . His hips will be OFA certified as are everyone of my breeding dogs. He will also have to pass the NLDA standard as does any dog . There are several of thing I look at that the standard dosen't cover, that may be ok to breed . That dosen't mean I am going to breed that dog. My goal is to improve my lines and to do that I am going to be very picky about what I breed. Thats just how I choose to run my program. I want as close to perfect as I can get even if thats not possible that is what I try for. What others do is up to them what they breed is up to them as long as they have to meet the same standards that my dogs do. I am fine with that if the stands ever change then I am fine with that too. I am not here to set standards. I am a breeder all I want to know is what standards are and I will follow them . I will try to exceed them ethics plays a very big part of my program !!
    Cowlicks are not covered in any of the standard. So that is a judgement call that I would base on just how close to the rest of the standard the dog is in every other possible way . I would look at work ability , temperment . Now color is covered in the standard and that is what I am required to go by . If it said no cowlick then I would follow that rule. I have compared no one to anybody If that was directed towards me! I was saying if the people can tell us how not to produce a red tri and if it can be prevented then that is what should be done . If she can tell us we could produce a brendal dog by doing a certain cross would we do that and make it a reconized color that is all I was trying to say . Again not my buisness how others run there breeding programs .

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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:44 pm 
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    :-BD Well said Camo. I am haveing a hard time beliveing all this started over ONE off colored dog. ~X(

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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:36 pm 
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    I agree Jimmy !! I do like open discussion and glad we are able to do that in this orginization. none of this is personal and do not want anyone to take it that way or be offended!

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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:57 pm 
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    Well, you shouldnt believe that it started off of one dog. Absolutely not. It didn't. I have wondered why blue lacys are more brown than blue for a long time, ever since I saw your dogs, Jimmy. I know what color blue dogs should be and many, many lacys are not blue. I have wondered why there are red dogs that have blue on them. Why are blue dogs allowed to be brown, but red dogs cannot have any blue on them? All of this has been in my mind from the get go. When Fred came up with the red tri, it just made sense to me. Colors follow genetic code. You have recessive and dominant and you have dilutes and you have double dilutes. Then, the creams came about. I wondered where on earth did those come from. Well, they dont come from a yellow lab. They are double dilutes and a natural consequence of breeding colors to colors. Colors changing are a natural out come from breeding different colored dogs. If you cant understand that, then you need to get your head out of the sand and try to understand.

    Colby, like I said before, you find me a website that says they can do genetic testing for cleft palate, let me know. I have yet to find any website, vet college, or anything close to knowing genes that will completely say that it is genetic. There is no genetic test for it. You may know vets that know cleft palate, but I know vets that I was the one that told them about cleft palate in dogs. I have visited with people from 2 other countries that their vets told them to put their dog down, even at 8 weeks. The thing that you must understand about cleft palate is that it is not a disease like diabetes, or heart disease, or dsyplasia. Once the puppy is eating, the pup is fine. It takes a dedicated person to bottle feed it and keep it healthy until it can eat food. From then on, it is fine. Cleft palate is NOT a disease, it is a condition that can be dealt with. If you have puppies that have it, if you do not intervene, they will die. Many, many puppies die because the breeder didnt notice that the pup was not growing like the other pups. Like I said, in a matter of hours, they are dead. Many of the pups that breeders say died because the mother laid on them, probably were cleft palates. The pups are simply naturally culled. That may sound hard, but dont compare me to breeding dogs that have dysplasia or diabetes.

    I know that there are websites that say that they suspect that cleft palate is an genetic problem, but none that I have ever found say that it is for sure. They have just started finding dogs are cleft palate and are beginning to deal with it. The vet that did the surgery on Abe's cleft palate couldnt tell us for sure. If a vet tells you that it is definitely and has been proven, send me his or her name and I would love to talk to him. I would like to see the research. Not because I dont believe that it is or isnt genetic, just because I don think that the research is out there. I was looking at a website the other day that listed all the diseases that there are genetic tests for and cleft palate wasnt on it. Do your research and send me all that you find that says that it is genetic. I will certainly be happy to read it.

    I bottle fed Abe every 1 1/2 hours to 2 hours, night and day for 3 weeks. At 3 weeks, I put him on raw meat. I still bottle fed him his milk decreasing the bottle feedings until he was able to eat bone to get his calcium. I read everything that there was on the web about cleft palate and how to raise one. Many people told me to put him down. A friend in India was told to put his dog down. What a crying shame. Cleft palate is a problem, but not once the pup can eat food. I know people who have dogs who have a much larger opening in the hard palate than Abe does. I know dogs who never had the surgery that are fine. Abe has no problem with his cleft palate now. We had it fixed, twice, but not all of it took and he still has a slit in his mouth. He knows how to deal with food or what that might get caught up there. He is a heck of a dog and I am proud to have him.

    I told the man who owned the dog that Abe was bred to everything that I knew about cleft palate. I told him that he could wind up with all cleft palate puppies or none, which is what I knew to tell him. He knew exactly what he was dealing with. I charged him nothing to breed Abe. I took no pick of the litter. He knew exactly what he was getting. I dont see that anyone who has not dealt with a cleft palate dog has any business telling me what I can or cannot or should or should not do with my dog. If I am honest and up front when I talk to someone about any of my dogs, then I have done what I should do as a breeder and as a person. If anyone thinks that I am wrong in breeding Abe, then that is their right. It would be nice if all breeders were as honest as I am and as straight forward as I am, but they are not. I think that you, Colby, know that. If I knew that someone that was buying one of my pups was interested in breeding down the line, I told them that they came from a litter that had a cleft palate in it. If I have done something terrible by breeding Abe, then so be it. I have done what I thought was right and do not regret it.

    John, there are standards and then there are standards. If Bull turns out to be a crack up dog in the bay pen and you had him neutered because he didnt fit the standard exactly, then more power to you. If I had a bang up good bay pen dog and it wasnt perfect, but had just a little extra hair on its tail I sure wouldnt neuter it. I would take it and work it and be proud that I had a bang up good working lacy, because they are few and far between. There are plenty of lacys out there that have a little extra hair on the tail. Once there are plenty of good hard working lacys on the ground, then you can deal with the long hair on the tail. It is such a small thing, compared to getting good working lacys out in the world. But, then, that is my opinion. I want to see some good working lacys out there. Not just one or two.

    Betty

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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:13 pm 
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    Betty I would still work him and he would still be a good working Lacy. But if the hair on the tail was with in the NLDA standards I would have to look at everything else about him to decide if I would breed him. What I am trying to get across is that the standards were put in place for a reason. There has to be some kind of control . Colors are a very specific standard and of importance or it would have been left open to judgement such as cowlicks. It is not covered in the standard nor is cleft pallet those are left up to the judgement of the breeder. Not all breeders are going to make the same call on things that are not specificly laid out in the standard. I do not think I have much more to add .

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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:34 pm 
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    I see to not be able to make my point. Either I am not saying something right, or there are more elements at work here that what I think.

    The color on a dog is not the IMPORTANT thing at this point. Working ability is what the breeders code of ethics talks about. The NLDA is geared towards working ability and working dogs. Standards are important, but they are something that is different to all people. To most people who want a working dog, color is the least important. To me, at this point in time, color is way down on the totem pole of importance. We can easily figure out the color thing. Color genetics is an art form that is accepted by most breeds. But, if color is so important that we are hell bent on keeping out dogs who are bang up good lacy dogs, then more power to it. The breed will continue to suffer and we will be taking second to dogs that are other breeds, or worse, half lacys. Why should that happen, when we can easily settle the color thing, explain it and continue to work towards getting some good breeders who breed good working dogs that go to good working homes? I just dont get it. I dont understand seeing good breeders who want good lacys not registering their dogs because the color is different from the typical blue or red or tri. Its a gene thing, for crying out loud. If you want to continue chasing out dogs who are full blooded lacy dogs, but happen to line their color genes up different, then more power to you. All breeds have gone thru color changes. I guess that the lacy breed is a different thing. We will keep it all blue, red and blue tri and brown dogs. Fine. If thats what you want.

    All of this came about because some people are so scared of making changes, regardless of what they are based on, that they cant see the forest for the trees. I never said that the standards were just going to be changed instantly, without regard to what everyone wants or believes, or anything along any time line. I merely wanted to bring the lacy breed into the 21 century and do what breeds that have been around for longer than 150 or so years do on a regular basis.

    I will still be doing the color genetics for those who want it done. I will have it done after Christmas because of the expense. If anyone wants it done, please contact me by email or pm. I can run under the radar and not have to take all of this grief and it will be fine with me.

    Betty

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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:09 am 
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    Wow! This is exciting! As I said earlier I am not a breeder nor do I wish to be, but I find this very interesting. I knew I was getting something special when I pulled the trigger on getting a Lacy. I am also glad to be a part of a group so passionate about this breed. We posted pictures of Remo on request from other members. As far as I'm concerned he is just a Lacy Dog. His color does'nt mean much to me and we had him fixed. We would have done it no matter what. He may not be recognized as an offical Lacy and thats not a problem, but you do have to wonder how and why did he happen. From what I know about Fred and his dogs he is a respected breeder with well documented blood lines.


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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:17 pm 
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    Lets simply wait for the science on how color plays a part in our breed. Im sure there will be plenty of discussion once the data comes in..........

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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:33 pm 
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    I agree either way it will be great imformation to know .

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     Post subject: Re: color genetics
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:30 pm 
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    I agree.... Betty I m trying to gather the information for you websites/vets you can get in touch with. Hard to do with a day job. :)) can't find much time and when I do it is away from the computer and in the woods with my dog! :D


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