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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:06 pm 
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In the process of testing our lacy dogs, I have run across some dogs who do have a melanistic mask. We tested one dog that doesnt have a mask, but because he had progeny that had a mask. There were a couple of obvious masks in the litter. I decided to test a blue for the mask and sure enough, we came up with a blue with a mask. Because of some research, I decided to test my 2 blue dogs for a mask. Got the test results back today and sure enough, both Larry and Abe are carriers for a mask!! So, we have one blue that is homozygous for a mask and now we have 2 blues that are heterozygous for a mask. If Larry or Abraham were bred to the right females, they could produce puppies that could have masks!!

This has serious implications for a breed that frowns so heavily on the mask.

Thought that I would put up the simple results for the dogs that have been tested.

Blue dogs
Leek's Larry-------------Em/e 1 copy of mask, can produce clear red pups
K/K homozygous for dominant black
at/at homozygous for black and tan
Leek's Abraham----------Em/E 1 copy of mask, cannot have clear red pups
B/B cannot have brown pups
K/N 1 dominant black can have fawn pups
ay/at carries for fawn and black and tan
Crain's Ragin Raven------Em/Em homozygous for mask
K/N
PH Lemanski's Grits-------E/e 1 copy of black-1 copy of clear red
K/N
at/a 1 copy of fawn and 1 copy of recessive black

Red dogs
PH Castle Jasper---------E/e
N/N
ay/at
Leek's Colt Peacemaker---E/e
N/N
ay/at

Tri-color dogs
Leek's Lucy Lou-----------E/E
at/at
Crain's Hooey-------------E/e
at/at

I have some other dogs tested, but am waiting on tests back.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:30 am 
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After reading that last post, I am even more confused...

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:04 pm 
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lots of info here.......my brain is running real slow.....

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:07 pm 
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I wonder if that is why some blue dogs have premature greying of the muzzle.

Betty, if you will bring an extra test kit, I will swab Luna. I know I've been saying I would have her tested for a year and haven't done it yet. I promise we will at the meeting.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:06 pm 
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I've tried twice today to get this post up. Hope that I can finish it now and get it posted.

Court, I will bring the swabs and will bring some extra, in case I can talk someone else into the testing. I know what she will come back as, but it will tell us for sure. Many of the dogs that have been tested have some of the same dogs in their lineage and Luna just got stuck with a black mask that is so obvious. Some of the others have skated thru because their masks either dont show, or they were bred to a different mate.

I had not been testing any dogs for a mask until I ran across a litter where there was a definite mask on a tri pup. We tested the father (red dog) for a mask and sure enough, he had one copy of a mask. HE DOES NOT SHOW A MASK, but he darn sure has a genetic copy for one!! When I discussed that with JP, she said something to the effect of there being a 50/50 chance of the pups having a mask. I took it that she meant that 50% of the pups would have a mask, so I decided to test a really dark blue pup for a mask and sure enough, she came back with a full mask. That told us that the mother had to have a mask also. The mother is blue, so the mask will never show. (The mother is in the process of testing now.) Then, I read about blues who have early graying having a mask and decided to test Larry and a bit later I decided to go ahead and test Abe. I expected Larry to come back with a mask (he is getting really gray at 4 yrs) and Abe not, but it didnt turn out that way!! I will also be testing Lucy for a mask.

The masking gene is dominant, so if a dog has one copy of the masking gene, it should show a mask, but after talking with UCDavis, they are finding out what should be the norm is not necessarily so. What does this mean for the lacy breed- or at least the dogs within the NLDA scope? It means that the masking gene is there- not just in Luna- but in a lot of dogs. We can get rid of it, or, we can accept it. I dont know what will be decided, but I see this as one of the biggest things that we have discovered by the genetic testing.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:13 pm 
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The other part of my last post did not show up like it was written, so I am reposting this in a different format and changing my wording some. Hope that it will make things clearer.

Blue dogs

Leek's Larry
Em/e 1 copy of mask, carrier of clear red
K/K 2 copies of dominant black (in our case blue)no fawn offspring will be produced
at/at 2 copies for black and tan


Leek's Abraham
Em/E 1 copy of mask, cannot have clear red pups
B/B does not have brown and cannot have brown pups
K/N 1 dominant black can have fawn pups
ay/at carries for fawn and black and tan


Crain's Ragin Raven
Em/Em 2 copies for mask, cannot have clear red pups
K/N 1 dominant black and can have fawn pups


PH Lemanski's Grits
E/e 1 copy of black-can have clear red pups
K/N 1 dominant black and can have fawn pups
at/a dog is black and tan and carries for recessive black


Red dogs

PH Castle Jasper
E/e 1 copy of black, carrier for clear red pups
N/N dog does not have have dominant black
ay/at dog is fawn and carries for tri


Leek's Colt Peacemaker same as Jasper
E/e
N/N
ay/at


Tri-color dogs

Leek's Lucy Lou
E/E 2 copies of black, cannot have clear red pups
at/at tri

Crain's Hooey
E/e
at/at


Break down of Abe:
ay/at (agouti gene) ay (fawn) is dominant over at (tri) so Abe is a fawn
K/N (dominant blue) is dominant over agouti, so Abe is expressing blue instead of the agouti fawn
Em/E The E is dominant over all colors in this breed, so Abe is again, blue with one copy of a mask, which would not show because the mask is also blue

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"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
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Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Ok, Im trying real hard to understand and then my head explodes.....Ill try again tomorrow...

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:07 pm 
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I am finally back. Been out of energy for working on color genetics for a while.

We had a dog at our event in Aug who was a very dark colored dog. She was the darkest blue that I have ever seen. The owner was kind and paid for the color testing on the dog and she did come back as blue. It surprised me as she was so very dark. So, another example of us not being able to tell what a dog is by just looking at it. I wish that I had a picture of her, but I dont.

I had Lucy and Robby's dog Colt tested for a mask. I tested Lucy because she is the mother of Abe, who has one copy of the mask. I wanted to find out where that copy came from, not because I will be breeding either dog, but because it is important for us to know where these masks are coming from. Lucy does not have a copy of a mask, so she CANNOT pass on the gene that Abe has that is for a mask. A pup gets one gene from each parent and in this case, the mask had to come from the father.

I had Colt tested because he has the dark shadow, altho it is difficult for some to see, that shows some darkness around the muzzle. JP had told me that she thought that Colt had the partial mask, but I wanted to test to make sure. He does have one copy of a mask, thus accounting for the darker muzzle. In Colt's case, we have no idea which parent it came from as neither parent has been tested.

I hope that these two instances will help show more about how prevalent the mask is in this breed. It should show that even on red dogs, people cannot always know what they have. One copy of a masking gene can be hard to see. We have to know what we are dealing with.

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"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Well....since two of my hounds are brothers to Abe, I have one copy of the mask as well.

If lucy doesnt have it then that narrows it down to Bull of the woods.

So with just one copy can a mask be produced or does it take one from each parent. Im talking about a mask that is like lunas or does it matter?

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:38 pm 
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Courtney, would you post that picture of the three dogs showing the full mask, partial mask and no mask, so that people can understand what we are talking about here? It was really helpful.

A dog like Luna has 2 copies of the masking gene. One from her mother and one from her father. Any dog that has a dark mask like Luna has what they call a full mask. It usually is like Luna's in that it starts a little below the eyes and covers the whole muzzle, under the chin, etc. There are masks that are known to cover the whole face, but what we are seeing in the lacy breed is like Luna's.

Since Lucy has no masking gene, Bull has to be the carrier of the masking gene that Abe got. If I was to breed Abe to a dog that also had one masking gene, those two genes would line up in some of the pups and produce a certain amount of pups that had full masks and a certain amount of pups would have partial masks. If I bred Abe to a dog that had no masking gene, as in the case of Lucy and Bull, a certain amount of pups will have a partial mask and a certain amount will not have any kind of a mask. So, Kevin, your dogs have a chance to have a mask, but do not necessarily have one. The only way to know for sure is to test.

As pointed out before, a mask does not show on a blue dog. A mask is black (or blue in our case) so the blue on blue just doesnt show. A full mask on a red dog shows like Luna's. A partial mask on a red dog shows as a shadow on the muzzle. It can be just a bit like Colt's, or it can be heavier, it just depends, but it will not be as obvious as Luna's. On a tri color dog, the mask will again show, if it is a full mask. Instead of having 'red' on the muzzle, it will be blue. The tris that I know of that have a full mask have a little red under the eyes, then it turns to blue, instead of continuing in red. I have not found a partial mask on a tri as yet, but I suspect that it will be hard to notice, since some tris, like Lucy have some dark skin on the muzzle. Had it not been for that dark skin, I wouldnt have been quite so inclined to test Lucy for the mask. When you see a tri with a full mask, it is pretty obvious, but since people in this breed have not been seeing a mask except on red dogs, they are not aware of it.

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"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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 Post subject: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:55 am 
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Certainly, Betty. I also have a picture of the dark blue lacy you had tested...though it's not a very good one.

Image

Image

Thanks for the updates and, like you, I am beginning to think a very large percentage of the dogs in this breed have a mask.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:37 pm 
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It certainly sounds like it....cant believe the NLDA are the only dogs out there with masks....

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Oh, believe me, there are lots of masks out there, with all groups. One group doesnt have a problem with it, from what I understand. The other group has chosen to ignore science and say that the Lacy breed doesnt have a mask.

It doesnt matter where the mask came from- it is there. At first, I thought that it was in certain lines, but after testing several dogs from different owners, I found that it is in different lines that dont go back to any duplicate ancestors, or at least ancestors that are within the 5 to 7 generations. It would be easy to get rid of if everyone that didnt want the mask would test their dogs, especially the blue ones. Then, they dont breed the dogs that have even one copy of a mask to any dog that has not been tested.

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"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did
better."
Maya Angelou

"You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something in your life!"
Winston Churchill

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bjleek/


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:29 pm 
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agreed...............personally the mask doesnt bother me, but thats just me

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:53 am 
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I don't really like the mask but, as mentioned, it is already here, and probably here to stay, considering that with the size of the breeding pool, and the number of breeding dogs each of us own, it is highly unlikely that many will either start over, or stop breeding the dogs they already own.
I have not tested our dogs yet, but still plan to, to add to the bank of dogs that we have correct information about.

I am much more interested in understanding what produces the cream reds, because a daughter of our Jones and Jemma, Felt's Dixie Southern Belle (Blue) bred with John Wyble's Bull (Blue) just threw a mixed litter which has one of these pups.

The litter appears to have a Blue, other Reds, a Tri, and the Cream, which is a bit overwhelming to comprehend, with my very limited knowledge of genetics.
Not to highjack this thread, but any explanation would probably make for some good reading!

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