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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:31 pm 
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I am much more interested in understanding what produces the cream reds, because a daughter of our Jones and Jemma, Felt's Dixie Southern Belle (Blue) bred with John Wyble's Bull (Blue) just threw a mixed litter which has one of these pups.

The litter appears to have a Blue, other Reds, a Tri, and the Cream, which is a bit overwhelming to comprehend, with my very limited knowledge of genetics.
Not to highjack this thread, but any explanation would probably make for some good reading!


I'll take a crack at it.

Both parents must carry for tri to have produced tri offspring.

Any blue dog can carry for fawn (what we call "red" in our breed) but fawn is recessive to solid blue so both of the parents must be carriers to produce fawn offspring.

Any dog with a blue parent carries blue. And any dog with a fawn parent carries fawn. Anytime fawn and blue puppies are produced in a litter, both parents have fawn and blue genes (whatever color they are.)

By the way, no fawn x fawn can produce a solid blue dog. They can produce tri if both carry for tri.

As for the very light red and cream colored dogs, we should continue to color test those. Geneticists aren't sure what causes the intensity of phaeomelanin (red) pigment in dogs...the difference between rich Irish Setter red and the almost white seen on cream lacys.

If the cream puppies have flesh colored noses and the unpigmented eye rims sometimes seen in our breed, they are generally recessive reds and not fawn at all.
Recessive reds breed quite differently than fawn reds and, if any of the red or cream puppies in the litter are recessive red, it means both of the parents carry the little "e."

As an example, this is Rowdy's color genotype:

Em/e: 1 copy of mask is present
ay/at: Dog has fawn and carries black-and-tan

Rowdy has one copy of the mask and she also carries the little "e." She is fawn and carries black and tan.
Rowdy could literally produce any color offspring paired with the right mate...blue, fawn, recessive red, and tri.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:54 pm 
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Thanks, Court. I started to answer but kept having to go look to see if I was saying stuff right, so I decided to let you answer it!! I do agree with it, you just said it simpler than I would have!

By the way, since this is the color genetics thread- we are finding brown in the lacy breed. We have suspected it, but these dogs are not being recognized as is so often the case with different colors. In the NLDA standards. the brown is a disqualifying fault, but I dont know about the other standards. It just shows me that these dogs are like most all of the other breeds that have different colors in them- we've most likely got them all.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:08 pm 
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Here is some more information on the light to cream reds:

Dilution of Red (Pheomelanin)

The dilution of pheomelanin (red pigment) in the the coat can vary from rich cream to white. It can affect both black based dogs (EM,EG,or E) and recessive red dogs (ee). The eyes and skin will remain dark. In a recessive red, this dilution causes a cream/white coat color.

In a black based dog (fawn,) it will dilute any red portions of the coat. Again, this can range from cream to white. This dilution has been referred to as chinchilla in the past, and attributed to SLC45A2 (previously called MATP), or TYR genes. Recent studies of this color have shown that SLC45A2 or TYR are not responsible, at least in the breeds studied. It is theorized there may be several recessive dilution alleles, at this locus, that work to cause the various levels of red dilution seen.

Dilution of Red Examples

Image

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:25 am 
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Thanks for those answers... Now, an invite to run down that road a little further?
If an Agouti Red (grandfather) was bred to a Cream (granddaughter), what do you think they might produce? I'm also trying to figure out where those Red Tri dogs are coming from... Mike Anderson has one that he just got from a litter he and Ferrell put together...

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 Post subject: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:41 am 
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Totally depends on whether the cream is agouti or recessive red.

You'll either get all red or red and tri - if both dogs carry for tri. My guess is you would get a cream or two.

As for the so called "red tri" there is no such thing. It is not possible.
We do have dilute liver and tan in this breed (liver and tan diluted to Isabella and tan.)

Liver and dilute liver are called "red" in the lacy breed all the time...and sold as such. The breeders simply don't know the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:55 am 
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Well, that was what Betty called that dog that Fred had, right? I have seen two others that looked real similar. Just trying to figure out what they are....

So, with only three major color categories, where should the liver dogs be placed, if not in the Reds?

The pups that are a product of Red/Blue breedings are often Blue with Red highlights, and end up a chocolaty color. Is that what you are talking about?

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 Post subject: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:15 am 
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The redish blues are caused by environment.

Think small...... The hair follicles have blank spots of color that never filled in, the blank spots then absorb dirt and stuff and are kinda died that color

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:49 am 
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Clifford, we dont know about the so-called red tri yet. That dog needs to be tested to see what it really is. As Courtney said, it's not really a red tri. It could be that there is the same thing going on with that as is with some of the blues that have what looks like tri markings, but are really light. There are a ton of blues out there that I can see tri markings on, but they are barely distinguishable. The markings will be a very slight red or brown color. I have talked with JP a little about these dogs, but not a lot.

Robby is right to a degree. Color will depend on environment, but also a red dog with blue markings will be an agouti red, or fawn. Color also depends on intensity and that gene is not testable as yet, but they know that it is there.

I dont know for sure what dog you are talking about from Michael and Rebecca, but the dog that I was talking about being liver is a brown tri. Brown (liver in our breed) is not an acceptable color, but with the LGDR, that may not be so. The part of the the tri that should be blue is actually a dilute liver. The red markings are normal. The dog is very likely a bbdd- brown dilute and it is probably a double dilute which makes him a fawn colored dog. There is no test that I know of as yet for the double dilute. As Courtney said, and I have said, the breeders simply dont know that they have a different colored dog. One kennel that we know of has produced pups that are liver but they are being called red. They simply are not red. They are brown. It takes someone that is interested, as Michael and Rebecca are, and those of us on the NLDA that have gotten into the color genetics, to see these differences and to take it to the level of doing something about it. Other people just see a funny colored dog and decide which color it mostly resembles and call it that.

Here is what JP says about brown:
Anyway, as to color, liver is brown is chocolate: three different terms different breeds, different breeders, different clubs & countries use for the same thing. All are <bb> Brown gene recessives. A simple Mendelian gene, with two alleles, the dominant allows for black pigment, the fully recessive dog ALWAYS has a brown nose, brown skin, and never has any black hairs, black pigment anywhere. Think breeds like the German Shorthaired Pointer. That's the classic look.

In Lacys the look WILL be somewhat different, given all the Lacy's are already <dd> dilute "blue" dogs. The solid Blue dogs are going to "fade" to silver or maybe a milky "cafe au lait" brown when they are "double dilutes"--here think Weims as all normal Weimararers are also <bbdd> like a "liver" Lacy would be. The solid Red dogs are going to be an especially pale color of red, & remember the normal slate/gray/blackish nose pigment will also fade (in all 3 colors); it's going to be a paler shade of gray, or brown or even flesh ("self") colored (i.e. a similar color to that of the red coat). The eyes will likely also be a lighter shade of brown or even look green (again, this applies to all 3 colors). The Tri's are going to likely look like reds or even odder, may have darker legs than the hairs on their body proper. The "fawn" Doberman has this pattern, as is a <bbdd> dog with the tan-point gene. Check them out? They usuallly have a paler body than the red on their legs, but it's possible that liver Tri's might look like a sort of (odd?) Red Lacy.

I'd think and such "double dilute" Lacy would be so distinctively different as to be immediately noticeable; i.e. IMO it's not likely that these Lacy's with a bit "off" color are true browns, as the brown recessive gene is a form of molecular hydrogen peroxide, so, literally, bleaches out all it touches--which makes it distinct. I just think you've got some optically odd dogs, mostly because the <dd> dilution gene has some natural variation. But of course you can send me any photos of questionable dogs, and naturally you can always advise others it's a simple, easy, non-invasive & relatively inexpensive test to find out if a dog is an actual genetic brown/liver/chocolate.


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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:12 am 
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This is the best pic I can find of that dog. I hope that since they are interested, they don't mind us borrowing it for a bit.... If it's a problem, just delete it after yall see it... It's the dog on the left...
Image

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:15 am 
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Oh, and I might add that the blue pup we just had that was born with the clear nose did fill it in to look just like the others now...

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:05 am 
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Clifford, that puppy with the blue and tan markings is most likely a saddleback.

Previously, it was thought that the saddle and creeping tan patterns may be caused by their own alleles on the A locus but it is now thought that they are in fact modifiers of the tan point gene (responsible for tri color lacys.)

The saddle/creeping tan modifier causes the black (blue, in our breed) on a tan point dog to "retreat" to the dog's back, leaving the rest of the coat red. A dog with the creeping tan pattern has slightly more red/tan than a normal black-and-tan (or blue and tan, in our breed.)
It's obvious when the tan spreads to the area around the eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:21 am 
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Quote:
So, with only three major color categories, where should the liver dogs be placed, if not in the Reds?


In my opinion, liver and dilute liver lacys do not meet the standard because they aren't genetically red...they are liver.
In a working breed, color really shouldn't matter....but we have a standard in place which recognizes blue, red, and tan-point dogs.

Quote:
The pups that are a product of Red/Blue breedings are often Blue with Red highlights, and end up a chocolaty color. Is that what you are talking about?


Are you talking about blue lacys which have a red cast to their coat? Like Kevin's Tiny, Wyble's Bull, and their sire Brooks' Patch?

I am very interested in these types of lacys. If we color tested them, the results would probably show that they are normal dilute "blue" lacy. There is just something about the way the pigment is arranged in the hair follicle that makes it appear red and, apparently, it has a strong genetic component.

There is a chance, in my belief, that these dogs could be what is called "seal" in the dog world. Seal is currently a complete mystery. Seal coloration makes black dogs appear brownish (with the nose remaining black.) I wish we knew for sure!

Image

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Yes, that is the color I'm talking about... Lots of those around...
So, if that's not the one you're talking about, please show an example...

And, which dog is the one above this post?

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Betty referred to "liver" as "brown" and I think that could cause some confusion since we have brown-ish tinted "blue" lacys...but liver is a completely different thing.

Liver, like Dilution, affects eumelanin (black pigment.) All of the black in the coat will be turned to liver.

However, where dilution is literally diluted black, liver is actually a modifier on the B locus. So, dogs can carry both the blue and liver genes at the same time.

Diluted liver is called Isabella. This is the color that weimaraners really are.
Since the entire lacy population is dilute, any liver lacys should become dilute livers.

Always look at the nose color. Black based dogs have black noses, dilute black dogs have slate colored noses, recessive reds have fleshy colored noses (because they can't produce black pigment at all) and liver dogs have liver or pink noses.

Now, lacy puppies are often born with pink noses that gradually turn to slate so you should never make assumptions on puppies. Rowdy's nose was pink as could be at birth but the black pigment gradually filled in and now it is a normal slate color.

As for the dog in my picture, I don't know the dog or the owner's name. I took the picture during an event several years ago. Betty has pictures of the dilute liver lacys.

I like to think that the NLDA has led the way for defining the coat colors and patterns in the lacy breed and we owe it all to Betty Leek and her work with UC Davis.

Liver
Image

Dilute Livers
Image

Dilute Black (blue)
Image

Clear red (this dog is not liver - because he is recessive red, he cannot produce black pigment, thus the flesh colored nose.)
Attachment:
colorgeneticsclearred2.jpg
colorgeneticsclearred2.jpg [ 177.64 KiB | Viewed 3519 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Excellent explanations! I've heard all of this before, but I don't fully understand it. Every time I read about it again or hear it explained a different way, a little more soaks through my thick skull!

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