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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:39 pm 
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I think you forgot to answer, about which Lacy that was in the picture above my last post...

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 Post subject: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Clifford wrote:
I think you forgot to answer, about which Lacy that was in the picture above my last post...


"As for the dog in my picture, I don't know the dog or the owner's name. I took the picture during an event several years ago."

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Dang, I go too busy looking at the pics, and completely missed that....

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:15 am 
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So, continuing this conversation, does this dog not look like the one that Fred had? I seem to be short of pics. If anyone can do a side by side, I would like to see the difference, and hear the explanation...

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:13 am 
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The only way to know for sure what genetics are at play is to have the dog tested.

After going back and looking at your picture again, I believe this pup could be a sable, which is controlled by the agouti series. I noticed he has a very dark tail, which is characteristic of sabling.

Sables are red dogs with black hairs covering the top of the head, ears, tail and back, in a distinctive pattern similar to the pattern seen on dogs with creeping tan. Sable is a pattern of spread, like black and tan, so there is a range from very little black to almost all black. Also, the shading can be very light (just some scattered dark hairs forming a pattern or very dark and distinct. Another distinctive feature is the "widow's peak" on the forehead, where dark hair forms a point. Creeping tan does this as well, which is why I first assumed saddleback.
The good news is, there is a test for both sable and black and tan. If you color tested this puppy, my guess is the results would be one or the other.

But that puppy is different from Remo, the dog Fred's Rip and Ria produced. We haven't tested Remo but he looks like a pretty normal red with some lighter red covering the sides of his muzzle extending to the cheeks.

There are some things we don't have an explanation for because there isn't a test for it or because the owners haven't tested those dogs. I am sure if you tested Remo, the result would be fawn.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:32 am 
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This sheltie is a sable (ignore the white...that is caused by a different set of genes entirely.)
Look at the shading on his head and legs. Looks a lot like the puppy in your picture.

By the way, I'm planning to test Luna for sable.

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Can you post pic of Fred's dog that shows the whole dog, in a pic similar to the one of the other dog I was comparing it to?

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:37 pm 
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This is all I have.

Remo's owner, Tisha, posted these on the facebook page. Remo is also this month's calendar picture.

Attachment:
remo.jpg
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Attachment:
remo2.jpg
remo2.jpg [ 132.07 KiB | Viewed 1693 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:19 pm 
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It appears that the Reds are the ones we seem to know the least about...

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 Post subject: Re: color genetics II
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:05 pm 
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This is an agouti Shiba. See the lighter red "highlights" on his underside? Shibas have been selectively bred to have this pattern. The Japanese call it "urajiro" and it appears as cream colored points, usually on a red dog. The points are located in roughly the same places as on a tan-pointed dog, but of course, tan points cannot appear on red dogs ... only black, liver, blue and isabella dogs. If you color tested a typical Shiba with urajiro pattern, the result would be agouti red.
I haven't talked to any "experts" about urajiro in lacys but, in my opinion, these genes or something very similar are responsible for the two toned red pattern Remo has.

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Color genetics is really easy to understand once you realize that all dogs only have two coat color pigments - black and red. Everything else is the result of modifiers, dilution, and patterns. (White hair occurs when the skin cells are unable to produce any pigment.)
There are many theories regarding the genes that may influence the intensity of red pigment, but there are no tests for that yet...unless something has become available in the last few months that I'm not aware of.

With the reds, there are four known variants of the Agouti gene and then there are the recessive reds. All of which are present in our breed.
Ay - sable
aw - agouti
at - tan points
a - recessive black

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